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Intermittent fasting associated with increased risk of early death

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Re: Intermittent fasting associated with increased risk of early death

#51

It's incredible to see how this site turned from valuable feedback in the comments to well...this. Half of the comments making assumptions that you can not make on the data provided, the other half seems to be IF Crusaders trying to justify their own "healthy" eating behavior as if their life depends on it. Here is a very simple thing to do when you don't understand a paper or how to interpret it. Send the Authors a…

> It's incredible to see how this site turned from valuable feedback in the comments to well...this.

...

> Here is a very simple thing to do when you don't understand a paper or how to interpret it. Send the Authors a mail and ask politely if they could help you understand their work better. There are multiple E-Mail Addresses provided from the Authors.

So, just so I'm clear: You're complaining that people didn't email the study authors and interrogate their work before commenting on the article here?

Re: Intermittent fasting associated with increased risk of early death

#52

The data was based on behavior between 1999-2014, which means it was behavior that almost certainly was not health motivated since intermittent fasting wasn't popular then. So I think you have to ask: why were these people skipping meals? I think there are a lot of possible explanations and they are all potential confounds. Like, one obvious reason people skip meals is that they don't have time. If you don't have tim…

I pulled up the full paper. As you speculated, people who skip meals are quite different from people who don't, in ways that might be relevant to overall health outcomes: > As shown in Table 1, compared with participants with three meals per day, participants eating fewer than three meals per day were more likely to be younger, men, non-Hispanic Black, with less education and lower family income, current smokers, hea…

Ha, similar to how the ketogenic diet was only really used by epileptics and people with similarly severe conditions before about 10 years ago. So eating keto was heavily associated with all kinds of severe problems but it was reverse causation.

Re: Intermittent fasting associated with increased risk of early death

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pulled up the full paper. As you speculated, people who skip meals are quite different from people who don't, in ways that might be relevant to overall health outcomes: > As shown in Table 1, compared with participants with three meals per day, participants eating fewer than three meals per day were more likely to be younger, men, non-Hispanic Black, with less education and lower family income, current smokers, hea…

> people who skip breakfast appear to have higher risk of cardiovascular disease-related mortality. I'd bet this behavior it correlates with late-night eating.

Or drinking excess coffee in the morning and not being hungry from all the caffeine :grimace: Like I am doing right now.

Re: Intermittent fasting associated with increased risk of early death

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pulled up the full paper. As you speculated, people who skip meals are quite different from people who don't, in ways that might be relevant to overall health outcomes: > As shown in Table 1, compared with participants with three meals per day, participants eating fewer than three meals per day were more likely to be younger, men, non-Hispanic Black, with less education and lower family income, current smokers, hea…

> people who skip breakfast appear to have higher risk of cardiovascular disease-related mortality. I'd bet this behavior it correlates with late-night eating.

Probably also correlates with stress, which is a major contributor to cardiovascular disease.

Re: Intermittent fasting associated with increased risk of early death

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the same thing... Also there can't be scientific evidence that anything improves lifespan.

Can you speak more to "Also there can't be scientific evidence that anything improves lifespan." I am missing the subtlety, but I would think statistically with twin studies and controlled experiments you could?

There is always the difference between causation and association...

Re: Intermittent fasting associated with increased risk of early death

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the same thing... Also there can't be scientific evidence that anything improves lifespan.

I think there’s ample evidence that seatbelts and airbags save lives, thereby improving lifespan as compared to the control (same number of car trips). Similarly, avoiding or ceasing of habitual smoking of cigarettes has ample evidence for lifespan improvement.

There is a fine distinction between scientific definitions of causality and association, incident rates and survival time, and other concepts....

Colloquially all of that is a lot easier to state.

Re: Intermittent fasting associated with increased risk of early death

#58

It's incredible to see how this site turned from valuable feedback in the comments to well...this. Half of the comments making assumptions that you can not make on the data provided, the other half seems to be IF Crusaders trying to justify their own "healthy" eating behavior as if their life depends on it. Here is a very simple thing to do when you don't understand a paper or how to interpret it. Send the Authors a…

> It's incredible to see how this site turned from valuable feedback in the comments to well...this. ... > Here is a very simple thing to do when you don't understand a paper or how to interpret it. Send the Authors a mail and ask politely if they could help you understand their work better. There are multiple E-Mail Addresses provided from the Authors. So, just so I'm clear: You're complaining that people didn't ema…

Thank you for asking.

Everyone should feel free to express themselves and I always encourage people to contribute. I'd just appreciate if people spent more time thinking about if they actually have something to say that has any sort of value for me as a reader on the topic in return for the time I'm giving them to read their submission / comments, as a basic form of respect.

In my opinion the steady decline of quality in comments and submissions, especially on scientific submissions posted here, is because a growing amount of people are not doing the minimal amount of research it takes to form an educated opinion about a topic.

But getting the science wrong has very real consequences. For example, when a community doesn’t vaccinate children because they’re afraid of “toxins” and think that prayer (or diet, exercise, and “clean living”) is enough to prevent infection, outbreaks happen.

To form a truly educated opinion on a scientific subject, you need to become familiar with current research in that field. And to do that, you have to read the primary research literature.

Reading and understanding research papers is a skill which every single doctor and scientist has had to learn during graduate school. Everyone can learn it, but like any skill it takes patience and practice.

Based on what I read in the comments for this submission, a lot of people do not want or can not spend that time on building an educated opinion on the topic and figuring out if the underlying paper has scientific authority.

That's why I encouraged them to ask the Authors directly, if something is unclear or they are making assumptions that are simply not supported by the paper.

I'd still appreciate if more people learned how to read and interpret scientific work but in a world where most people want instant rewards and have a rather short attention span, a short, polite E-Mail to the Authors is a shortcut to gain valuable insight on the scientific work and your own assumptions about it, so that you don't sound like a complete idiot to people who have actual knowledge about the topic when you say things like "Most people in this study were probably obese and would have died anyway" or "Probably junkies skipping meals".

I could take time to explain this paper in an even lengthier comment, but I'm just Jamesbeam on HN. You have no idea if I'm a nobel prize winner or maybe having an agenda to persuade you into a certain direction, but the authors of this paper are actually scientists published in a reputable journal and they were so kind to even give you the ability to contact them by publishing their E-Mails.

And yes, I think it's a good idea to challenge your assumptions by asking people with actual knowledge about the topic so you don't look like a complete fool on the Internet.

Re: Intermittent fasting associated with increased risk of early death

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's incredible to see how this site turned from valuable feedback in the comments to well...this. ... > Here is a very simple thing to do when you don't understand a paper or how to interpret it. Send the Authors a mail and ask politely if they could help you understand their work better. There are multiple E-Mail Addresses provided from the Authors. So, just so I'm clear: You're complaining that people didn't ema…

Thank you for asking. Everyone should feel free to express themselves and I always encourage people to contribute. I'd just appreciate if people spent more time thinking about if they actually have something to say that has any sort of value for me as a reader on the topic in return for the time I'm giving them to read their submission / comments, as a basic form of respect. In my opinion the steady decline of qualit…

Honestly, and I mean this with all due respect: You're being unreasonable.

A study gets posted to Hacker News.

You seem to expect every single person who wishes to discuss the study to first become an expert in the subject matter ("To form a truly educated opinion on a scientific subject, you need to become familiar with current research in that field.") and deeply engage with the material at the level of, if not an expert, at least a dedicated amateur ("That's why I encouraged them to ask the Authors directly, if something is unclear or they are making assumptions that are simply not supported by the paper.").

You're basing this all on a claim that HN comments have reduced in quality ("In my opinion the steady decline of quality in comments and submissions...") which is rooted in nothing more than your own personal opinion (which is a bit ironic for someone insisting that everyone do a deep and fundamental analysis of a topic before they weigh in on it) and, frankly, a fairly self-centered view of what dialog should look like here ("I'd just appreciate if people spent more time thinking about if they actually have something to say that has any sort of value for *me*").

Bluntly, this just looks like gatekeeping and elitism to me.

Yes, I agree, folks should read the articles or studies before commenting. No question there. That's just basic due diligence.

But this is a discussion forum first and foremost, and some of the very best interactions I've seen, here, have been between interested amateurs either asking questions or posing theories, and experts coming along and chiming in.

Weirdly, you seem to recognize the value in that ("And yes, I think it's a good idea to challenge your assumptions by asking people with actual knowledge about the topic so you don't look like a complete fool on the Internet.") You apparently just don't want people using this forum to engage in those conversations, which is really very strange to me.

If you don't want that kind of interaction, maybe you should continue to dial down your interactions with HN, because it seems to me this community is not what you want or need (which appears to be a group of only subject matter experts weighing in on any given topic).

Re: Intermittent fasting associated with increased risk of early death

#60
it seems this got flagged for all sorts of reasons, but one significant observation is that they threw away data for people who eat more than 5000 kcal/day as "implausible". Those people are likely to be among the most unhealthy, and also the least likely to skip meals, moreover if skipping a meal caused you to go from 5500 to 4500, this would create a pretty significant effect in the data.
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