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EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

epa.gov

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Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#101

Post by fullstop »

mrguyorama wrote: post #96
fullstop wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand a lot of those are in the rail yards and not at full speed. Here is a poorly made website which can generate reports on this: https://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/officeofsafety/publicsite/que...

Goddamn I love government websites. A simple form, with clear and common styling, with no place I have to put my email, with no popup about joining a damn mailing list, with no ads, and when I click the submit button, the response is instant and a clear table that doesn't do anything stupid with javascript. Every time the government spends my tax dollars developing a web page with a form that generates reports, an an…

Yes, I like that part greatly. The text was very small, though, and zooming does not behave as I expect.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#102

Post by chmod775 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #68
fh973 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed... the EU has a similar network size and there it's less than 100: https://twitter.com/HerrNaumann/status/1626342809438502918 Edit: less than 100 (Entgleisungen).

How much less than 1000 (my German is pretty rusty)? e.g. 900 vs 1100 is not really statistically different, and doesn't suggest a systemic problem. Especially given the heavy focus on shipping for the US rail network versus passengers in the EU. Tracks in the US that are used for passengers are maintained better than shipping-only tracks, for sure.

The second row in that chart shows derailments. So 104 derailments in 2014 and 68 derailments in 2016.

That extrapolates to be in roughly the same ballpark (only by a factor of ~2x off) with what this sibling comment pointed out: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34886899

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#103

Post by ambicapter »

mrguyorama wrote: post #96
fullstop wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand a lot of those are in the rail yards and not at full speed. Here is a poorly made website which can generate reports on this: https://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/officeofsafety/publicsite/que...

Goddamn I love government websites. A simple form, with clear and common styling, with no place I have to put my email, with no popup about joining a damn mailing list, with no ads, and when I click the submit button, the response is instant and a clear table that doesn't do anything stupid with javascript. Every time the government spends my tax dollars developing a web page with a form that generates reports, an an…

Ok now try to figure out where to change your residential address on the FAA's website and tell me how much you love it.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#104

Post by mrguyorama »

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #55
riffic wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the federal government can step in and nationalize the railroad at any point as it has done in the past (woodrow wilson era iirc)

Oh I'm aware, this is more a general idea for "too big to fail" companies in general. Our infrastructure is rotten and often privatized. No one has the funds and ability to hold companies like this accountable except for the federal government. Look at Steven Donzinger. He reported on toxic spills by Chevron in Nicaragua that poisoned indigenous water supplies. Chevron hired a private prosecutor and found a judge in…

It's almost like we shouldn't allow companies to grow so large, and that a company being larger than most countries doesn't provide any benefit to the consumer.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#105

Post by hellerve »

rootusrootus wrote: post #68
fh973 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed... the EU has a similar network size and there it's less than 100: https://twitter.com/HerrNaumann/status/1626342809438502918 Edit: less than 100 (Entgleisungen).

How much less than 1000 (my German is pretty rusty)? e.g. 900 vs 1100 is not really statistically different, and doesn't suggest a systemic problem. Especially given the heavy focus on shipping for the US rail network versus passengers in the EU. Tracks in the US that are used for passengers are maintained better than shipping-only tracks, for sure.

2 per week, i.e. roughly 100.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#106

Post by ambicapter »

eppp wrote: post #18
thrashh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well based on the fact that - we’ve cleaned up 25% of sites in a system that only started in the 80s - the infrastructure bill in 2021 bringing back the superfund cleanup tax on chemical companies that expired in 1995 — at double the rate - and Congress also authorizing an extra $3.5 billion 2 years ago just for cleanups I think it’s too early to be so cynical

This is a completely broken system though. These cleanup fees should be paid for during the waste generation. Just being allowed to pollute everything and then paying out the owners and declaring bankruptcy leaving it to the tax system to clean up is nonsensical.

What about collecting taxes on these companies while they're operating and then using that tax money to clean up any messes that may occur? Oh wait.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#107

Post by Rimintil »

thearn4 wrote: post #98

I'm finding it difficult to find objective assessments of the impact of what has happened in East Palestine. It seems like there are interests in dismissing the impacts entirely, but there are others that seems to want to overstate the impacts significantly. Does anyone else feel this way?

Other than introducing FUD about the cleanup costs, why would you believe there is overstatement on the impact of the disaster? What metric has you doubting the impact statement? What are your qualifications to make this assessment?

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#108

Post by mrguyorama »

blibble wrote: post #41
eppp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a completely broken system though. These cleanup fees should be paid for during the waste generation. Just being allowed to pollute everything and then paying out the owners and declaring bankruptcy leaving it to the tax system to clean up is nonsensical.

in cases like that: if the owners are still around (meaning: not deceased) the courts should be able to pierce the corporate veil and go after the directors for unlimited amounts

What the courts are allowed to do, and what Judges regularly opt to do are extremely different sets.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#109

Post by jokowueu »

hammock wrote: post #74
xadhominemx wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phosgene also has very low environmental persistence. I think the actual amount of dioxin created from combustion of vinyl chloride monomer at atmospheric pressure is very low. In any event, both were dispersed into the atmosphere at concentrations that pose(d) very little danger to people outside of the temporary evacuation zone.

I stand corrected. They did a great job and no one in East Palestine is sick

All of that smoke and no one got sick ? Hard to believe

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#110

Post by input_sh »

yardie wrote: post #38
adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name a country with good rail that hasn't nationalized it (hint, you can't).

Japan privatized their railway in the early 90s. It's really good. This is not an endorsement of privatization just a counterpoint to the argument of national vs privatized transport systems. What it means is leadership and management has to be truly held accountable.

Worth pointing out that a major part of why it works in Japan is that rail companies also own real estate around stations. High foot traffic allows them to charge high rent to stores.
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