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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

danlawton.substack.com

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#181

Post by enugu »

fluoridation wrote: post #80
Karunamon wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything as subjective as one's own mindset interpreted by oneself is incompatible with the scientific method in the first place. It's not the right tool for the job because it is impossible to objectively measure the results. That does not make those results any less real.

"Real" in what way? I would say that something is definitely real if I can agree with other people that it's there, while other things can at best be put in the "maybe" pile. Whatever you experience while meditating, other people won't be able to experience it, so it can't go in the "definitely real" pile. So the fact that it can't be studied scientifically definitely does make it less real, in the sense that your ca…

As someone noticed, you are trying to say something similar the private language argument of Wittgenstein.

But notice that this isn’t really private to a person.

How are we sure about external events like a ball falling down? Are they not processed by our minds and then expressed in language. A ball falling down is fairly standardized and accessible, but for other events there is a lot more background which is needed. But human experience and culture is filled with phenomena which require a much larger shared context - which is acquired after walking in a shared territory. Like long time explorers of the seas who can have a a conversation on far away lands.

Explaining many current physical concepts or how to interpret the experiments which are conducted at a non-superficial level requires years of training (leave alone research). Even someone who finishes high school algebra is at a rarefied stage compared to people thousands of years ago.

Getting a shared context in meditation related explorations might actually require much lesser time.

For similar reasons, negative stages itself have been meticulously documented in manuals like Visuddhimaga which are referenced in the books mentioned in the article.(fwiw, my 2 cents on the article - maybe instead of promoting intense concentration on sensory phenomena, love based practices like bhakti or metta might be a better popular practice).

A good counter argument is that in the physics example there are gradual stages in learning where at each stage you can test what you learn and match it with the world, not spend 15 years of education to get to QFT and then match with experience.

But that ladder is present even in the case of traditions which explore the mind.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#182

Post by HeckFeck »

hutzlibu wrote: post #79
samastur wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then what? I'm genuinely curious as a loved one rejects therapy exactly because she already knows what causes of her depression are and does not see any use in debating them further as they only bring her down. I don't have experience or knowledge to explain how it would help her.

"because she already knows what causes of her depression are and does not see any use in debating them further as they only bring her down." Hard to advice without further knowing details, but I could relate in a way, that the global state of the world causes me depression, but I cannot change the root cause. But I can change my attitude towards things. Deal with the problems I can solve and accept the rest. Spot pat…

From my experience the biggest source of depression was people around me. Especially those I felt obligated to, but they didn't seem obligated to me in return. Maybe looking here might help. Indeed, it is not uncommon to criticise the world as a substitute for those in our environment whom we cannot criticise.

Leaving those people was difficult but the depression lifted and I was free to focus on my own life, which has been getting better.

Also getting a good night's sleep is very helpful. There are certainly also intensifying factors in the modern western lifestyle.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#183

Post by pbhjpbhj »

fluoridation wrote: post #143
Frummy wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your reply. In most ways I agree, in all ways actually. But my point is that the term "real" doesn't mean strictly material. The picture I'm painting is to bring away "reality" from strictly material and external. I do this to argue with the point above your original reply, saying that the scientific method is incompatible with these things. We're in philosophical territory and I won't pretend to be an…

Which is why I originally asked what was meant by "real". From a consensus-realistic perspective, things that are purely subjective and non-material things are definitely less real or at least less-obviously real. From a solipsistic perspective the only real thing is one's subjective experience, and everything else is in doubt. But most people are not capable of consistently maintaining a solipsistic perspective, so…

Even the solipsistic must surely realise that there are simulacrum of external reality that can be dismissed as, say, 'it was just a shiver' rather than being a 'real' part of one's subjective experience.

Reflecting, I guess I'm questioning if the solipsist really believes all that which is put before their minds is really "experience", per se.

As sure as anything, Pyrrhonism is where it's at!

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#184

Post by zozbot234 »

scop wrote: post #175
zozbot234 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stoicism is more like Buddhism on easy mode for those in the Western tradition. Even Buddhists themselves are very clear that one should not pursue serious meditation unless they have their sīla (morality, ethical behavior) down pat and are at an appropriate stage of life where they have the time and means for it; Stoicism is all about the practice of sīla. If you skip on that, you end up with stories like OP's, and…

I really appreciate your comment. I think I’ll remember the phrase “Buddhism on easy mode” for the rest of my life! Your observation about preparation, behavior, state of life etc is also very poignant. I am Catholic and something that I’ve found delving into the writings of the saints is that it is often like staring at the sun: it’s too intense and I’m not ready for it. For example, when I was an atheist in college…

The Catholic tradition and Christian tradition in general are deeply informed by Stoicism, especially Stoic ethics. So coming from that kind of tradition, you might find that you're already aware of many of these things, even if you couldn't quite tell where they originally came from.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#185

Post by tuyiown »

haswell wrote: post #163
tuyiown wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I experienced a deep realisation that our thoughts manifest from nowhere and not from ourselves (words fail me here) and that the construct of 'me' was completely false and was just a reverberation of my environment. I understood there was no me. This was really nice for about two weeks and then my ego (I expect) just kicked my arse and brought me back down to earth with a crash (maybe its a safety system) Just for…

> * the «from nowhere» really just might be the unconscious brain* The trouble is that once you start to consider the nature of the unconscious brain, such consideration leads to the same conclusion. If the unconscious brain somehow has “control”, from where does it derive this control? Unless you then accept some kind of metaphysical explanation, it’s centerlessness all the way down.

> it’s centerlessness all the way down

Well I didn't meant anything else actually. I realize that the «unconscious» term is tainted, as it can represent something like a hidden part of personality, especially on Freudian literature and likes.

I didn't meant that, I was thinking of the sum of the autonomous processing and coordination of the numerous intricate and distributed functions of the brain, senses, motor, emotional, etc…

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#186

Post by zeknife »

cyberbanjo wrote: post #148
waboremo wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not entirely sure if any study demonstrating the benefits of meditation or mindfulness considers counting 9 to 1 repeatedly an act of either. That aligns much more closely with the advice given to those with panic disorders in how to ride out their panic attacks or prevent them when they feel coming on.

I'm not Buddhist or experienced meditator, but I have surely seen instruction for counting based mindfulness practices. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganana#Technique

Rather, it is a concentration practice, and concentration facilitates mindfulness

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#187

Post by culebron21 »

fxtentacle wrote: post #2

I'm submitting this article because I thought it was somewhat objectively written and an interesting subject to consider. My impression (from far away) of some of the meditation gurus is also that they look like they are kinda addicted to their new "hobby". Also, it's rarely healthy if your income depends on you strongly believing in something (anything, really). "60% of the participants reporting distressing experie…

It was here on HN couple of years ago on top as well. Sadly, the main reaction here is "he did it wrong" or "not hard enough". Even though he addresses this objection in the article.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#188

Post by coffeebeqn »

ycombinete wrote: post #135
cutler wrote: post #114

I can't help thinking that most of these examples of negative side effects are related to intensives rather than meditation/mindfulness itself. There's a world of difference between 20 minutes a day and 10 days in a retreat looking inward. Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. I once experienced negative effects after joining a Buddhist meditation group while at university. Every time I…

There are often first-hand comments about the dangers of mindfulness practice here on HN. But when the commenters describe their practices they are so extreme that it was almost inevitable that they had negative effects.

There’s quite a spectrum between a 10-20min almost daily habit and trying to actually reach “enlightenment”. These 10 day silent retreats are a lot closer to the Bodhidharma sitting in a cave end of the spectrum. Probably not the first people to go a little crazy attempting that in Buddhist history. Given the context I would imagine it’s mostly overachievers but that is not really a healthy approach to religion or mental health (going hard as a mf)

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#189

Post by justsocrateasin »

Reminds me a lot of Overtraining Syndrome (OTS), the condition where your body stops responding positively to the stress of endurance sports and essentially stops recovering quickly. A 20 mile run no longer makes you faster, instead the fatigue from it just settles inside your body.

I remember reading that while training for an ironman and getting a bit spooked. But then I realized that the folks who suffer from OTS are taking it to such an extreme. This article reminded me a lot of that - it sounds like you can take anything too far. At the 99.99th percentile, probably any healthy activity can become an obsessive act that can ruin your life. But anywhere in between the 50th and 99th percentile it's probably still a good thing.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#190

Post by ycombinete »

coffeebeqn wrote: post #188
ycombinete wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are often first-hand comments about the dangers of mindfulness practice here on HN. But when the commenters describe their practices they are so extreme that it was almost inevitable that they had negative effects.

There’s quite a spectrum between a 10-20min almost daily habit and trying to actually reach “enlightenment”. These 10 day silent retreats are a lot closer to the Bodhidharma sitting in a cave end of the spectrum. Probably not the first people to go a little crazy attempting that in Buddhist history. Given the context I would imagine it’s mostly overachievers but that is not really a healthy approach to religion or me…

> Probably not the first people to go a little crazy attempting that in Buddhist history

During the signup process for a 10 day Vipassana retreat, they ask for a lot of details about your psychological health. Even warning against doing the retreat if you’re not in a good mental place. So I’m sure you’re right.

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