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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe everyone should experience a little psychosis.

Having had two psychotic breaks, I do not recommend the experience. The last one caused something like hardware-level damage that took years for my brain to recover from.

No doubt they are serious. After I made my comment I thought about editing it provide nuance.

My problem is more about language and giving names to things and society adherence to the mean. As children we experience many psychotic breaks as we adjust to the world. It could be that as we mature the frequency is reduced but that doesn't mean the episodes are inherently bad. They could be a normal part of a consciousness's maturation.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#172
Yep that's what an intense panic attack feels like. Literally the worst experience you can imagine. His description matches my own worst experiences. And yes it would freak anyone out.

Guess how I overcame them :-) yep, you guessed, meditation - but it took time. I no longer have panic attacks but it was not a smooth journey. I also made big life changes and spent a lot of time in nature, coupled with medications.

On reflection I was pushing myself hard and was filled with ego - I'd had difficulties in the past before I started meditating and was massively overworking myself. A crash was inevitable. I am humbled by what I passed through - and that in itself is a victory.

Do I think meditation 'caused' the panic attacks, no, it brought to the surface something that was pretty much inevitable because of how I was living my life. Should I have treated meditation more respectfully and seriously. Yes, for sure.

Meditation is not a miracle drug, a panacea or a therapy. It should be viewed as the journey out of suffering - and that path by its very nature is likely to confront you with difficult experiences. If I can offer a tip or two from my own experiences :-

AGAIN: Meditation is not a miracle drug, a panacea or a therapy.

Serious meditation is a serious endeavour, like free-climbing. You should never take it lightly and you must be serious about it. When you take something seriously you do so with awareness of the dangers and the hardships you may face.

You may have genuinely very difficult experiences as the OP did, that is why it's important to have an experienced and wise Teacher. They can help you face these experiences and help you to grow stronger by doing so.

Take your time, the path is a long path, don't try for Nibbana by Tuesday, instead look for small concrete improvements and build on them over time. Be humble and realise that you have a lot of stuff to deal with and it takes time.

NEVER EVER lie, omit or exaggerate on an application form. This is how meditation teachers determine the risk of you having an experience you can't deal with. This was mentioned in the article, but I can say for sure that the teachers of Goenka retreats do try their hardest to not accept people on causes who might have difficulties. They also do drill in the idea that it's a serious undertaking.

If you have a difficult experience and can face it, even a little, your mind is stronger for it. The next time it happens maybe you can face it a little more.

I hope this article does not put people off meditation, it turned my life around. But at the same time, I hope people can take away the seriousness of such endeavours as the article does highlight.

When something that over a 100,000 people a year do any activity there will always be a tragic story. Be it running a marathon, boating or driving cars. Of course we should do everything possible to avoid that happening. But we do need to be realistic and acknowledge that tragedies do happen even when people have the mental equivalent of a driving license, air bags, seat belts and drive carefully.

Wishing you all happiness.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#173
I never understood exactly why the West views meditation as something healing, something that can be prescribed willy-nilly to individuals with a history of trauma. I guess it's because it is non-invasive and doesn't sound like it would harm the patient further if not help them.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect there will be higher cases of psychosis happening on intense retreats, but as anecdotal as this, I had it happen to me (albeit not as extreme as OP) after meditating for much shorter periods (approx 10 minutes up to an hour). I really did not see it coming. For some context, I don't know of any deep seated trauma that I have and I liked to think of myself as someone robust mentally. I experienced a deep real…

Interestingly you describe the shattering of your delusion as the return of your ego - I think it is the opposite. I think you invited an inflated ego into your life through your meditation : "I should become a guru and help humanity" <-- that is ego speaking. The shattering of this idea is is not ego but humility, to my way of thinking.

you have a point

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#175
post #22

Had anybody else noticed that for many Stoicism has replaced Buddhism as the “cool” and “intellectual” spirituality amongst those in the liberal tech world?

Stoicism is more like Buddhism on easy mode for those in the Western tradition. Even Buddhists themselves are very clear that one should not pursue serious meditation unless they have their sīla (morality, ethical behavior) down pat and are at an appropriate stage of life where they have the time and means for it; Stoicism is all about the practice of sīla. If you skip on that, you end up with stories like OP's, and…

I really appreciate your comment. I think I’ll remember the phrase “Buddhism on easy mode” for the rest of my life!

Your observation about preparation, behavior, state of life etc is also very poignant. I am Catholic and something that I’ve found delving into the writings of the saints is that it is often like staring at the sun: it’s too intense and I’m not ready for it. For example, when I was an atheist in college I read St Augustine’s Confessions and found it interesting from a philosophical point of view and an easy read. Now, as a believing and practicing Catholic, I can’t even finish the book. It’s spiritual fruit, of which I was ignorant in my youth, are too intense for me. I come back to it every couple of years and each time make it a little bit further.

That is all to say, it is funny how in mainstream discourse about religion/spirituality there is very little mention of “ability”. “Religious practice” is most certainly a skill that is acquired and refined through hard work (and grace).

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#176
post #114

I can't help thinking that most of these examples of negative side effects are related to intensives rather than meditation/mindfulness itself. There's a world of difference between 20 minutes a day and 10 days in a retreat looking inward. Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. I once experienced negative effects after joining a Buddhist meditation group while at university. Every time I…

To add on. I think the key is probably to have a balance. Your life, work, sport, medity

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#177

Scott Alexander had reviews of Dan Ingram and related 'modern day enlightened'. I seem to recall a suggestion that these people could be considered to have developed something like a self induced, positive version of dissociative personality disorder. They would get angry or hungry or grumpy, but 'they' were a step away from this person that was hungry or angry or whatever. It's like they had zoomed in and drawn some…

Daniel Ingram is a deluded fool, and imo being this deluded probably means a sort of mental disorder. His book and system just show how far away from any real form of enlightenment he is. Sadly because he sounds modern & a little scientific people keep taking him seriously. No, the Vipassana nanas are not what he describes. Anyone wondering about him should just forget this stuff, burn this book and go to a retreat w…

Are you basing this purely on reading about supposedly enlightened people getting angry or grumpy? That's a surprisingly common thing, actually. I know that Ingram's claims of arahatship are controversial and quite possibly mistaken (i.e. it's quite possible that there are levels to enlightenment well beyond what he discusses, especially wrt. the grounding of sīla and renouncing one's cravings), but that's not to say one should dismiss his whole teaching.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#178
The place where I learned to do deep meditation also had a strong emphasis on self-pacing. Maybe that would help reduce these kinds of negative experiences. With meditation, more isn't better, and it's important to stay grounded.

(Note that I rarely meditate anymore, but it did help me through some difficult times)

https://www.aypsite.org/38.html - self pacing

https://www.aypsite.org/13.html - deep meditation

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#179
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has. My distinction is not about doing it well either or going to reach the "real" nirvana or whatever. I'm seeing it in the anthropological sense, as a particular historical artifact. It's truth is in doing it because you were steeped in a Buddhist tradition/environment, as opposed as doing it as consumer lifestyle choice/hobby.

"Real communism has never been tried" is a meme. GP is referencing this meme.

I know, hence my use of the similar idea of "really existing Bhuddism" (a reference to "really existing socialism").

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#180
post #114

I can't help thinking that most of these examples of negative side effects are related to intensives rather than meditation/mindfulness itself. There's a world of difference between 20 minutes a day and 10 days in a retreat looking inward. Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. I once experienced negative effects after joining a Buddhist meditation group while at university. Every time I…

There are often first-hand comments about the dangers of mindfulness practice here on HN. But when the commenters describe their practices they are so extreme that it was almost inevitable that they had negative effects.

It also makes me wonder whether it’s unusual people who select themselves into such extreme activities, and not that meditation is dangerous.
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