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Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

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Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#201

Post by testTED »

hankish wrote: post #144
inadequatespace wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have experience with this tool?

Loomio is a great tool. It works great for certain types of things but I've struggled to really build an effective worker community with it multiple times. At the end of the day, voting on proposals is not a terribly effective nor scalable form of democratic governance.

> At the end of the day, voting on proposals is not a terribly effective nor scalable form of democratic governance.

What isn't effective enough? What do you envision going better?

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#202

Post by AndrewKemendo »

marcusverus wrote: post #101
throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #14

It just occurred to me that so many people were laid off, we could start the world's largest software co-op (and arguably one of the largest tech orgs, period). We could build software products that every industry needs, that every worker owns a part of and can vote on org-wide decisions. Literally everyone you need was laid off... Tech people, business people, marketing, sales, etc. We just need a forum and some vol…

It's hard to imagine such an organization working out over the long term. The incentives are all wonky! The more you contribute, the more you sacrifice by joining a coop. The less you contribute, the more you gain. I for one can't think of a less attractive idea than taking a product idea that I love and turning ownership and creative control over to a group of strangers. And that's probably why these things are so r…

It's 10x harder because you are doing something counter-cultural and pro-social. The global economic system is structured to prevent you from doing precisely that.

The systems and processes for running a psychopathic corporation are laid out like the Netflix Paved Path for anyone who wants to play the game of "get as much as you can." This path will push you to build the most exploitative thing there is possible in order create maximum returns for capital (even if that becomes you). The end result is what you see: GE, Exxon, Amazon, Wal-Mart, BP Google, etc... an organization with no long term goal other than making money for investors. Is that your definition of "Working out over the long term?"

How about we build a real strong community where we're all owners and we have a say in how the process works, we share in the wins and the losses and don't screw anyone over ever. It's possible, yet somehow all of my fellow geniuses - despite all our ingeniousness - can't unpack this super simple problem that cooperatives around the world have been solving forever. Oh sorry, a few anecdotes about some failed ones and some old hippies that fight yet retain amazingly robust communities, means it will never work.

The systems and processes for "share everything from the beginning" - while working within the economic system that exists today - that's severely underdeveloped and needs thousands of former-capitalists like you and me to start putting the work in to change it.

Or you can build yet another private dictatorship cause it's "easier" for you.

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#203

Post by Rantenki »

eat wrote: post #177
marcusverus wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to imagine such an organization working out over the long term. The incentives are all wonky! The more you contribute, the more you sacrifice by joining a coop. The less you contribute, the more you gain. I for one can't think of a less attractive idea than taking a product idea that I love and turning ownership and creative control over to a group of strangers. And that's probably why these things are so r…

> The more you contribute, the more you sacrifice by joining a coop. The less you contribute, the more you gain. You could say the same thing to describe working for any corporation.

Any corporation which fails to extract more value from it's employees than it pays them doesn't stay in business for long.

But yes, you are absolutely correct, and the value added by a productive developer is probably vastly larger than the value added by the rest of the rank and file. That's why developer centric startups can grow so large, so quickly.

Still need the rank and file to take care of pesky things like sales, payroll, governance/compliance, etc...

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#206

Post by NetOpWibby »

robust-cactus wrote: post #132
whatshisface wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more you contribute, the more you sacrifice by joining a coop. The less you contribute, the more you gain. How do you think co-ops work? Are you imagining a flat organizational structure like Valve Software? An open source project plus invoices? Those are all interesting ideas, but co-ops presently work like employee-owned business and usually have managers and compensation structures that fit the obvious way t…

Interesting fact - valve no longer works this way because it didn't work.

Oh wow, I had no idea. When did they stop?

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#207

Post by NetOpWibby »

whatshisface wrote: post #165
robust-cactus wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting fact - valve no longer works this way because it didn't work.

Valve was never actually flat, they always had a corporate wing setting payscales and directing the company. It's a common misconception, partly brought about by their recruitment marketing.

That's some great marketing. I never applied to work there, I just assumed "now that's how you run a company!"

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#208

Post by crooked-v »

whatshisface wrote: post #113
marcusverus wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to imagine such an organization working out over the long term. The incentives are all wonky! The more you contribute, the more you sacrifice by joining a coop. The less you contribute, the more you gain. I for one can't think of a less attractive idea than taking a product idea that I love and turning ownership and creative control over to a group of strangers. And that's probably why these things are so r…

> The more you contribute, the more you sacrifice by joining a coop. The less you contribute, the more you gain. How do you think co-ops work? Are you imagining a flat organizational structure like Valve Software? An open source project plus invoices? Those are all interesting ideas, but co-ops presently work like employee-owned business and usually have managers and compensation structures that fit the obvious way t…

For a similar example of the difference between ownership and management, while it's not a co-op, Vanguard Group (the investment firm) is structured so that the company is owned by the funds it manages and thereby by its own investors. The internal structure is still basically the same as any other big corporation, the difference is how the top-down management behavior is incentivized.

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#209

Post by monkeycantype »

whatshisface wrote: post #113
marcusverus wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to imagine such an organization working out over the long term. The incentives are all wonky! The more you contribute, the more you sacrifice by joining a coop. The less you contribute, the more you gain. I for one can't think of a less attractive idea than taking a product idea that I love and turning ownership and creative control over to a group of strangers. And that's probably why these things are so r…

> The more you contribute, the more you sacrifice by joining a coop. The less you contribute, the more you gain. How do you think co-ops work? Are you imagining a flat organizational structure like Valve Software? An open source project plus invoices? Those are all interesting ideas, but co-ops presently work like employee-owned business and usually have managers and compensation structures that fit the obvious way t…

>> to GPT

Nice verb, is this an original coinage?

Re: Ask HN: Where are laid off employees gathering?

#210

Post by actualwitch »

harshalizee wrote: post #43
throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #14

It just occurred to me that so many people were laid off, we could start the world's largest software co-op (and arguably one of the largest tech orgs, period). We could build software products that every industry needs, that every worker owns a part of and can vote on org-wide decisions. Literally everyone you need was laid off... Tech people, business people, marketing, sales, etc. We just need a forum and some vol…

I always thought having a "guild" like Hollywood does or something similar would be a great boon to empower tech workers. Of course, it wouldn't be 1:1 mapping, but a collective tech union-like open institution would go far in leveraging against hostile employers. CEOs get golden parachutes on signing. It's time tech workers start demanding what their exit package looks like in case of layoffs/reductions against thei…

I've been thinking about how IT union would look like, because IMO the reason it still hasn't materialized is that it needs to be dramatically different from the unions every other industry has. For one, I think it should be remote only, highly automated and the main offer would be to create a platform to discuss problems that arise, collectively make a choice and then enforce it through the hands of union members, if people sabotage the process they get kicked away. Have a way to prove that you are indeed a current member, things like that.
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