Live data from Hacker News

CheatGPT

blog.humphd.org

71–80 of 544 posts

Re: CheatGPT

#71
It seems ChatGPT should be treated the same way institutions treat plagiarism. It's fine to use LLMs for inspiration but the work you submit must be meaningfully your own.

Of course it's not perfect, it never will be. But ultimately it's the student that suffers when they plagiarize. Professors ought have this conversation with students at the same times they're discussing the value of learning & education. I suspect we'll build tools that match answers against the text that LLMs spit out and that will make it easy for people to detect when answers are being pasted verbatim from LLMs.

The other broader spicier thought that comes to mind is that LLMs may push the Overton Window for what's considered entry level and that's probably ultimately good tough it won't be without some sacrifice. This would mean CS departments potentially need to do a curriculum iteration to accommodate. Perhaps there are new, slightly more sophisticated, entry level problems that can be tackled where the commodity solutions haven't yet been entombed in LLMs. Maybe assessments will shift to be less about regurgitating the solution to a common problem and instead to fixing problems with some localized toy implementation or some fictitious API that LLMs won't know about.

Re: CheatGPT

#72

Cheating in academia isn't a problem, because the only people students are cheating is themselves. I've seen plenty of cheaters, they were the worst students, and despite cheating couldn't graduate or couldn't find a job after graduating. If some moron is stupid enough to cheat when he's paying 50K a year, let them.

The problem with widespread cheating even if you don't cheat yourself is it essentially reduces the credit rating of your $50k program and has knock on effects elsewhere, like worse interview loops. And if the 'cheater's workload' becomes the norm, you the non-cheater can be literally failed out of programs and scholarships because you didn't keep up.

Re: CheatGPT

#73
post #15

"In my opinion, the students learning to program do not benefit from AI helping to "remove the drudgery" of programming. At some point, you have to learn to program. You can't get there by avoiding the inevitable struggles of learning-to-program." Couldn't you say the same about how compilers 'remove the drudgery' of writing machine code? Or is that a bad analogy? Provided AI eventually gets good enough in its code g…

Abstraction works because you are able to treat an abstraction as a black box and concern yourself only with its input and output. A segment of code written by an LLM is qualitatively a very different thing; it's more like an open box of crap that you have to inspect and put together yourself, which requires knowledge of the contents, which requires experiencing the drudgery.

Re: CheatGPT

#74
Just cracking myself up thinking about 20 years from now where at some startup the sole engineer (prompt engineer?) who has been trying for hours to figure out why their program doesn't work finally gives up and asks the model "what is the difference between 'let' and 'const'?" and getting a mostly verbatim stackoverflow answer back. A beautiful story to me.

Re: CheatGPT

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are people paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for them?

To get an actual education instead of merely imitating whatever is trending on hacker news.

I think most just want a decent job to pay bills after. The rest love the field, the theory of cs, and may or may not continue into academics or research.

Re: CheatGPT

#76

"Cheating" is good. School teachers and professors should not be the arbiters of how much money you earn later in life, but they are based on their subjective assessment of you (via grades). Many do not realize the intensely adversarial relationship one is in with a teacher. You are not there to learn. You are there to get an A. In the case of social sciences, you support the ideas your professor espouses. In the cas…

The people you're cheating are not your professors but your peers. For better or for worse, grades are used to rank people and mete out further opportunities and benefits. The professors already have jobs.

[deleted]

Re: CheatGPT

#77
I am trying to think about use of LLMs in education as similar to calculators. This post reflects how I was taught: students couldn’t use calculators to solve problems initially. For example, no calculators to do addition and subtraction when you’re learning to add or subtract. But also, probably not when learning to multiply or divide. Doing addition and subtraction builds skills and intuition for what multiplication and division are. The same is true with understanding fractions.

Moving up the math hierarchy to algebra, though, this changes. Algebra is at first about the concept of solving equations, and the core idea is that “to solve the equation, you can do whatever you want to one side, as long as you do it to the other.” The mechanics of addition or subtraction, for the most part, no longer matter. Go ahead and use a calculator to solve obscure divisions and multiplications so you can better understand algebra (though it feels appropriate to note that a student who is good at arithmetic can still outpace a calculator for problems that are likely to be used pedagogically, since the numbers are easy).

In this example, algebra is to calculus what arithmetic is to algebra. A calculus teacher cares little if his students can solve equations; he expects they can. They’re instead learning integrals and derivatives and series, and I doubt a calculus teacher would begrudge their students using a calculator to solve a difficult equation.

The problems with treating LLMs this way are many. They are not calculators. You cannot (trivially, or maybe at all) understand how an LLM works. You cannot (trivially) fact check it if it spits out an absurd-sounding answer. You cannot limit the LLM to what your own, personal abilities to trivially do are. We need AI that cites sources, so we can debug when it’s wrong. We need understandable AI for the same reason, not the obscure black boxes we have today. We need AIs that not only can solve our problems, but that can also help us to solve our own problems. When we have those things, AI will be much more useful for education and for widespread use.

Re: CheatGPT

#78
post #53

The failure mode of things like ChatGPT is it can make wrong answers confidently, subtly, and if you don't have the skill to audit what is wrong with the answer, then it can be fairly catastrophic. So instead of making questions generative, you make them audits / debugging type ones. Use ChatGPT to generate a result after several iterations that is wrong and then ask them what is wrong with the result. Since ChatGPT…

I think it’s an interesting point about making the questions audit or debugging.

But, also a mistake to hark on the often humorous fact at how confidently wrong our Gen1 AI can be. That will go down over time. Imagine a time when AI is making good programming choices and correcting itself when it’s wrong. Imagine Gen4 AIs.

Both of these things tie together. If we need to detect cheating now, prove you can debug. When AIs get better, prove you can debug. It’ll be the same skill either way.

Re: CheatGPT

#79
post #71

It seems ChatGPT should be treated the same way institutions treat plagiarism. It's fine to use LLMs for inspiration but the work you submit must be meaningfully your own. Of course it's not perfect, it never will be. But ultimately it's the student that suffers when they plagiarize. Professors ought have this conversation with students at the same times they're discussing the value of learning & education. I suspect…

It will be a hard sell since it or similar tech has already been long embraced commercially. A bit like forcing students to use an abacus while calculators are around.

The student should still be responsible for what they submit and all of its errors of course. But what should really change is our methods of assessing students. The University model for undergrads has already been long broken in need of fixing. I don't think this will significantly impact grad students yet.

Re: CheatGPT

#80
post #62

let them cheat. every assignment let them know that in the end they are only hurting themselves. the ones that want to learn, won't cheat. simple as that. and that ones that cheat and leverage it, great. hope that works out in the future at your next destination. all you can ever do is present the facts. there is no point wasting time trying to catch this.

>hope that works out in the future at your next destination.

That's the thing - a lot of code is generated with "Github Copilot" so it isn't considered "cheating" in the real world. They need to learn how to properly use the tools available to them. They'll be harmed by forcing them not to use this tech, so it makes sense to teach them how to use it better.

Post reply on HN