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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

economist.com

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#181

Post by maxsilver »

hgomersall wrote: post #127
fleddr wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

I think the question that anyone that rejects cars would ask is "why do you choose to live 60km from your work?".

Because most people don't have the luxury of choosing those things.

- I don't have any meaningful control over where I'm allowed to work

- I don't have any meaningful control over where my spouse is allowed to work

- I only have a tiny amount of control over where I'm allowed to live (most of it prices us out, despite being above-average income)

- even if I do exercise some control, it can be changed or stripped from me by others at any time. (You may get laid off and have to find a new office. Or your office may move away from you -- when you are hired, the office might only have been 12 miles away, but later they moved the office so it's now 25 miles away)

- You may not always be allowed to move in response to those changes (you might not be able to afford to move your whole house every two years, when job situations for you/your spouse change. And if you have kids, doing this super disrupts any chance they may have at a social life via school)

- You may not even be allowed to change home or school locations. (Divorced people exist, shared-custody children exist and are in some places, the most common form of parenting in 2023, you might not be allowed to relocate your kids schools ever)

A lot of anti-transportation "15 minute city" idealists like to handwave away how incredibly complicated it is, to magically get your entire life to line up such that you don't ever have to travel medium-sized distances. That is an extreme luxury that most people will never have.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#182

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

hgomersall wrote: post #161
davidMC1982 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because his partner works 60km in the opposite direction?

I think you're missing the point... If you reject car ownership and the associated commute etc, you structure your life around that. You get a job and a house that are compatible with that philosophy. As a couple, neither of you would have a job that requires you to commute such distances.

Couldn't think of a better argument for why most people do not reject cars. Restricting your employment options to a small, say cyclable area around where you live can be extremely limiting for your employment opportunities, especially if you have a partner that also works. Especially considering the point another commenter said that oftentimes central business districts where the best jobs are can be prohibitively expensive for housing.

I'm not one to discount the cost of a long commute, and I'm hopeful that more remote and flexible work options will make it so people have less time commuting. But people like to own cars because in most cases they can be incredibly useful, and ignoring that fact won't help people transition off them.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#183

Post by HardlyCurious »

mcv wrote: post #165
davidMC1982 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because his partner works 60km in the opposite direction?

It's generally better to live close to one person's workplace than right in between the two.

Why?

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#184

Post by Steltek »

runako wrote: post #74
nostromo123 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but in a short time someone will reply here to tell you how they brought their kids to kindergarten in subzero temperatures with a bike, or how they bike half an hour in rain to buy groceries... For my family it's not even about the physical aspect, but about time. I don't want to waste my free time going to and from places in 2x/3x the time it takes by car.

> in a short time someone will reply here to tell you how they brought their kids to kindergarten in subzero temperatures with a bike, or how they bike half an hour in rain to buy groceries... Fully expecting that comment, and I look forward to that person describing how they take an elderly parent to the doctor on a bike…

Don't be silly. The elderly parent with bad reflexes and even worse eyesight will drive themselves to the doctor in their equally decrepit car. That's what really happens when you reinforce the belief that cars are a necessity because bikes are some extreme hardship.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#185

Post by GiorgioG »

vanilla_nut wrote: post #125
GiorgioG wrote: post #89

I grew up in a small/medium sized city with a bus system. I couldn't wait to get a car and stop having to live my life around the bus schedule (especially on the weekends.) I don't buy this article's argument. Outside of cities there will always be a demand for cars. My daughter just turned 16 and she's working/saving for a car and won't shut up about it - which IMO is great...motivation to work hard, keep her grades…

I'm a young millenial. I have a number of Gen Z cousins and coworkers who admit that they hate driving, many of which never got a driver's license. I loathe car dependence too, but I suspect a lot is linked to frugality: I grew up with gas prices approaching $5 a gallon and it certainly didn't feel freeing to pay that to go literally anywhere (plus maintenance and upfront costs and insurance, of course).

"...who admit that they hate driving, many of which never got a driver's license."

They hate driving or they don't drive because they don't have a license (and thus how can they hate something they don't do)...which one is it?

I don't "love" my vehicle, I'm an adult and a vehicle is just a tool. I enjoy the convenience of being able to move from point A to point B on my own schedule. Are there downsides? Of course. Find me something that has no downsides. Cars have more upside than downside for most people outside of cities with mass transit systems that run like a well oiled machine.

Beyond just moving humans, sometimes we need to move other things. I needed several sheets of drywall and plywood a couple of weeks ago. I didn't have to pay some ridiculous $100 delivery fee and wait for delivery on their schedule. I drove 1/2 mile to my local hardware store, threw the materials in the back of my truck and brought it home...total time, 30 minutes.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#186

Post by fleddr »

hgomersall wrote: post #161
davidMC1982 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because his partner works 60km in the opposite direction?

I think you're missing the point... If you reject car ownership and the associated commute etc, you structure your life around that. You get a job and a house that are compatible with that philosophy. As a couple, neither of you would have a job that requires you to commute such distances.

And you're missing the point that these types of jobs are in or around the big cities, where people cannot afford housing. Well, maybe 5% can, the rest of us will commute.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#187

Post by WeylandYutani »

hgomersall wrote: post #127
fleddr wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

I think the question that anyone that rejects cars would ask is "why do you choose to live 60km from your work?".

The average in the Netherlands is 20 kilometers if anyone is wondering.

I think public transport is pretty good if you live in the Den Haag-Rotterdam-Amsterdam area. Which in America would be considered a single metro area. Something like 5 million people.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#188

Post by oefnak »

pc86 wrote: post #124
david-gpu wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bike sharing services are great in those situations. You don't even need to carry your bike in the train. There is also public transit like trams and buses.

I didn't see many bikes in Amsterdam capable of conveying luggage.

There's plenty of 'bakfietsen' in Amsterdam.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#189

Post by vel0city »

fleddr wrote: post #109
wffurr wrote: post #10

There's 138 trains per day between Amsterdam and The Hague. It's faster to take the train than to drive on that trip. Driving in either city in an exercise in frustration. Why would anyone in a rich country with a high functioning rail system like The Netherlands want to drive? I don't know how many rich countries that describes, but I lived happily for years in Boston in the USA without a car. I have one now but onl…

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

Traveling 60km, even in traffic near me, would take like 45 minutes by car.

It's a bit of a long commute by US norms (I think average is 20mi, 32km) but not too crazy compared to what some people do.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#190

Post by aardvarkr »

speeder wrote: post #130
fleddr wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

That is not a car country. São Paulo has more car than population, and has so many cars that their area summed is bigger than the area of all streets in the city. It is so many cars that sometimes walking 1 hour to your workplace is faster than a car route where you can spend 2, 3 hours to go to a neighborhood next to yours during rush hour. So many cars that the city became also the city with most helicopters, becau…

That’s not a car country, that’s a traffic country.
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