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Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

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Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#401

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #399
tptacek wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your HVAC technician might be better at math and science than your accountant, your estate lawyer, your real estate attorney, your corporate contract review attorney, and probably 2/3rds of everyone else that works in an office building. At least in major urban school districts, I don't generally think teachers are underpaid (every OPRF teacher makes 6 figures; the median CPS teacher makes something like 70k, and the…

> But calling them "not intellectually gifted" is mean spirited, reductive, and unhelpful. Only if you think there’s something wrong with being of average or modestly above average intelligence. I’m simply pointing out that—insofar as our society accords higher compensation to intellectually gifted people or intellectually demanding jobs—the credential inflation in teaching creates a false signal about the nature of…

You can't use math and science facility to establish that, because, like many high-status careers, math and science ability isn't the figure of merit for evaluating a practitioner. I'm sorry you had a bad experience in 6th grade, but in fact being an excellent 6th grade teacher isn't about how well you did in vector calc.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#402

Post by rayiner »

tptacek wrote: post #401
rayiner wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But calling them "not intellectually gifted" is mean spirited, reductive, and unhelpful. Only if you think there’s something wrong with being of average or modestly above average intelligence. I’m simply pointing out that—insofar as our society accords higher compensation to intellectually gifted people or intellectually demanding jobs—the credential inflation in teaching creates a false signal about the nature of…

You can't use math and science facility to establish that, because, like many high-status careers, math and science ability isn't the figure of merit for evaluating a practitioner. I'm sorry you had a bad experience in 6th grade, but in fact being an excellent 6th grade teacher isn't about how well you did in vector calc.

Figures of merit used to gate-keep high-status professions (SAT, LSAT, MCAT, etc.), correlate well with general intelligence. It's not that math/science reasoning ability is especially important in every job, but that it's especially revealing of general intelligence in a way that's hard to paper over with credentials.

I agree being a teacher doesn't require someone to be smart. But why should we expect teachers, who are mostly quite average people, to make more money than the average person?

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#403

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #402
tptacek wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't use math and science facility to establish that, because, like many high-status careers, math and science ability isn't the figure of merit for evaluating a practitioner. I'm sorry you had a bad experience in 6th grade, but in fact being an excellent 6th grade teacher isn't about how well you did in vector calc.

Figures of merit used to gate-keep high-status professions (SAT, LSAT, MCAT, etc.), correlate well with general intelligence. It's not that math/science reasoning ability is especially important in every job, but that it's especially revealing of general intelligence in a way that's hard to paper over with credentials. I agree being a teacher doesn't require someone to be smart. But why should we expect teachers, who…

I don't agree that being a teacher doesn't require someone to be smart, just like I wouldn't agree that being weak in math means you're not smart. I probably know more smart people who are weak at math than people who are strong at math, and I work in part in a math-intensive subspecialty. Just a weird argument to make. Again: sorry you were humiliated by a 6th grade teacher. That's not OK.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#404

Post by jacobr1 »

astura wrote: post #349
jacobr1 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note we tend to pay garbagemen more than teachers! I think that probably seeks to the job desirability. More people are willing to be teachers than haul garbage and that is reflected in the pay, net of other impacts.

Where are people getting this shit from? According to the BLS garbage collectors have a median annual wage of $ 42,780[1] whereas elementary school teachers have a median annual wage of $61,400[2]. [1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes537081.htm [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kinde...

thanks for the correction

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#405

Post by fafafuf »

1-more wrote: post #374
fafafuf wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that teachers unions will definitely not be happy about it as work style of all teachers will need to change and a lot of them will not be necessary anymore. But kids will have the best possible education. We do it for kids, right?

what is your experience with teaching?

None experience at all but I'm not the person who will Crete this "product".

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#406

Post by fafafuf »

maratc wrote: post #354
fafafuf wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In short "yes". Millions of teachers around the world every day do exactly the same work as other teachers - this is a huge waste of talented resources. If they don't need to do repetitive job, that can focus on individual learning for those who really need it or help society in other way.

Did you ask the kids whether they would rather be educated with a teacher in the company of fellow same-age kids, or with "technology" and "multimedia" without any chance to raise a hand, ask a question, get a slow answer? Sorry, but this just reeks brutal tech-broism to me. "We have such a powerful technology that we can do everything, nevermind asking if we should." My kids were confined to the home at the covid-19…

It's not an imaginary tech robot that will do this. It's a product combining the best what we have. Maybe the question to kids should be different: Do you want to watch super interesting interactive movie / play game that will teach you this in 20 minutes and the rest 40 minutes you can enjoy with your friends or you want to sit in a classroom for one hour and learn it traditional way? Also I don't have in mind remote teaching. Kids should be in a school anyway to interact with each other.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#407

Post by fafafuf »

1-more wrote: post #375
maratc wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ask the kids whether they would rather be educated with a teacher in the company of fellow same-age kids, or with "technology" and "multimedia" without any chance to raise a hand, ask a question, get a slow answer? Sorry, but this just reeks brutal tech-broism to me. "We have such a powerful technology that we can do everything, nevermind asking if we should." My kids were confined to the home at the covid-19…

I work in ed tech and the best we can be is a force multiplier for teachers. If they have to spend less time creating and grading certain kinds of thing, that's good and that's what we aim to do for them. But replacing them is a) impossible b) a dumb idea anyway.

It's not impossible - it's other way of thinking. Yes it's hard as it needs to fight something that we have been doing for ages. It's dumb to forget about all the kids that have terrible or average teachers or don't keep up with other kids and they are to shy to say it clearly which means for them to take additional classes after school or try to do it alone wasting a lot of time of their childhood.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#408

Post by bfeynman »

Loughla wrote: post #240
bfeynman wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

keep in mind that teachers only work 9 months of the year as well. Not really that impressive to take a 2nd job when you have 3 months in the summer to do whatever you want.

So I'm married to a teacher, I taught, and I still work in education. Many teachers take graduate courses, do extra-curriculars for students, teach summer school, and prep for the fall/spring in the summer. It's not just free time for many teachers, but it is unpaid time. You can't just hand wave away the work they do all year long because you want to. edit: I just thought of this. My wife, who has taught for over 15…

I don't really see how any of those things are peculiar compared to normal jobs. Teachers usually get paid for extracurriculars and summer school, maybe a small lump sum but still.

The PTO argument is ridiculous, teachers get off for school breaks and the whole summer, way more than average workers. Yes their vacation schedule during year is a little rigid, but that is pretty obvious tradeoff. Not to mention their benefits persist over the summer anyway so they are compensated year round.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#409

Post by chitowneats »

roughly wrote: post #348
chitowneats wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, aren't you lucky that the rising cost of basic and essential goods isn't a strain on your personal finances.

It can be possible that two things are true at the same time: the current situation is bad, and the alternative was worse.

The actual correct alternative would have been to not freak out about COVID. I can understand the first 3-6 months of restrictions. The rest was a total own-goal. A politicized circus. At least we didn't own ourselves for almost 3 years like China.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#410

Post by chitowneats »

blamazon wrote: post #352
chitowneats wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Had we instead given that money directly to teachers" You mean the people who went to great lengths to be considered non-essential, so they could work remotely? We know the result of that was historic learning loss for American children. They don't deserve another dime.

I sense a polarity in our opinions regarding responses to the pandemic that indicates we're unlikely to come to an agreement on much with regard to adjacent topics, which is okay with me. Trying to put myself in your shoes, my heart breaks for the things you probably saw and experiences you probably had during the pandemic that I presume contributed to this harsh perspective on the public education system in Chicago.…

Thank you for your comment. It's not often someone tries to empathize with someone on the opposite side of an argument. Especially on the internet. Indeed, I saw things I hope to never see again.
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