Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers • Hacker News Board

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#181

Post by bfeynman » Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

tristor wrote: post #139

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in 2022, the median income in the US was $54,132/yr [1] and the US Census Bureau says median household income was $70,784/yr [2]. I'm not opposed to teachers making $60k/yr, but I think setting this as a floor at a federal level for what is one of the most common professions in the US [3] will have significant and serious unintended consequences. There is a massive amount…

keep in mind that teachers only work 9 months of the year as well. Not really that impressive to take a 2nd job when you have 3 months in the summer to do whatever you want.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#182

Post by hammock » Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #172

hammock wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

School choice via vouchers, etc would allow parents to decide for themselves how outcome is measured Edit: why the downvotes? If you are uncertain of or unamenable to the way outcomes are measured, vouchers are a reasonable solution that puts the power in your hands

There’s a significant race and religion component to school choice.

What do you mean?

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#183

Post by _bohm » Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

AndrewGaspar wrote: post #94

news_to_me wrote: post #44

My first “real” job after college (2013) I started at $60k. It was more than my mom, an elementary school teacher, ever made. It felt embarrassing. Teachers are at least as valuable as software developers (probably more), given their impact on society. Why do they make so little?

I'm sure your mom is great, but teachers have low value over replacement. Teaching is not a particularly high skill or difficult job.

Difficult how? A relative of mine is a teacher in a high-poverty area and it seems like a very taxing job. Regularly having to deal with children who are emotionally or physically abused, or who recently immigrated and don't even speak english, and trying to teach them math. I daresay this is not a set of challenges most software engineers I've met would be well equipped to handle.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#184

Post by bravetraveler » Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

HEmanZ wrote: post #128

This is loosely related, but every time I think of public school teacher salaries my mind goes to the public school teachers I know. As a group they are… exceptionally ungifted. As just one example, I lived with two middle school teachers in Texas for a few years. They probably couldn’t pass the grade they were teaching. I have never met two professionals with so many credentials (MS in Education) and so little sense…

I grew up in Appalachia and had a similar experience. More babysitting than education.

I don't think pay will solely fix it, but I have to assume there's some selection bias from it. We only get the staff who are willing to put up with the boards, students, and pay as a whole set.

Those in Appalachia will be living better, but I have a hard time imagining they're [financially] struggling. The wages are generally depressed and so are living expenses.

Their pressures are probably from-above, their peers, and their students. For example, teachers have to pay for a lot out of pocket (or their personal time)

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#185

Post by kimbernator » Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

AndrewGaspar wrote: post #94

news_to_me wrote: post #44

My first “real” job after college (2013) I started at $60k. It was more than my mom, an elementary school teacher, ever made. It felt embarrassing. Teachers are at least as valuable as software developers (probably more), given their impact on society. Why do they make so little?

I'm sure your mom is great, but teachers have low value over replacement. Teaching is not a particularly high skill or difficult job.

I'd strongly disagree with your assertion that teaching is not a difficult job. I won't address the exertion that goes into individual parts of it, but all of the teachers I know regularly work nights and weekends in addition to handling the emotional stress of teaching, which itself is a huge burden, especially for those working in less affluent schools.

In any case, the measure for teachers should not be "how hard is the job" but rather "how important is the outcome". It might be easy enough to replace a teacher without raising the salary (another assertion I have issues with - there are rampant teacher shortages nationwide), but could you not be potentially getting a better teacher and having broadly positive effects on society if you're offering more money?

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#186

Post by tombert » Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

HEmanZ wrote: post #128

This is loosely related, but every time I think of public school teacher salaries my mind goes to the public school teachers I know. As a group they are… exceptionally ungifted. As just one example, I lived with two middle school teachers in Texas for a few years. They probably couldn’t pass the grade they were teaching. I have never met two professionals with so many credentials (MS in Education) and so little sense…

Sample size of 1, and it's up to my friends and peers to determine if I'm "ungifted", but I've wanted to be a professor since I was a teenager; I like teaching, I like research, I don't want to deal with "children".

I'm doing a part time adjunct lecturer thing, and I absolutely love it, but it's an extremely difficult thing for me to consider doing full time. In my full time engineering job, I get paid almost triple what a full time lecturer makes at the school, so it's not something I have seriously considered; nearly anyone qualified to teach software at a college level is also qualified for a cushy engineering gig.

If my professorships paid something comparable to my engineering job (or even if they paid at least half of an engineering job), it would be a much easier sell for me.

I have to think that the same would be true for primary school teachers.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#187

Post by AndrewGaspar » Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

_bohm wrote: post #183

AndrewGaspar wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure your mom is great, but teachers have low value over replacement. Teaching is not a particularly high skill or difficult job.

Difficult how? A relative of mine is a teacher in a high-poverty area and it seems like a very taxing job. Regularly having to deal with children who are emotionally or physically abused, or who recently immigrated and don't even speak english, and trying to teach them math. I daresay this is not a set of challenges most software engineers I've met would be well equipped to handle.

I haven't seen a lot of evidence actual teachers handle problem children all that well either.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#188

Post by LudwigNagasena » Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

blamazon wrote: post #157

HEmanZ wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the cost of more financial problems for taxpayers? How do you balance those two?

Those teachers aren't burning the money. It goes back to the community around them as they spend it, generally.

And taxpayers usually burn money?

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#189

Post by bastardoperator » Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #68

kshahkshah wrote: post #24

I'm in NJ where we value public education, for the most part. According to National Center for Education Statistics our average teacher pay was $77,489 in 2022. This is excluding benefits/pension. Well worth it.

How come 78% of low income fourth graders in NJ can't read?[0] [0] https://acnj.org/newsroom/news-releases/nj-4th-graders-score...

Maybe socioeconomic status in this country does come with benefits... You're trying to make a different point while ignoring the more profound point.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#190

Post by mrweasel » Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #70

The minimum starting salary for a teacher in Chicago is $60,000 (cost of living adjusted), the highest in the country. It hasn't solved Chicago Public Schools' problems. Source: https://wirepoints.org/chicago-teachers-are-paid-some-of-the...

Salary most likely isn't enough, but it's an easy area to focus on. Danish teachers aren't pay particularly well either, but they are better paid than many other professions, yet salary is the main area of complaint.

I suspect that you could get away with a lower salary, if teachers are given more support and more autonomy. If you have to deal with troublesome students, parents and micromanaging politicians, then you want a lot more money.