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Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

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Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ECP brakes would have saved the day Citation needed. It sounds like all administrations (especially those currently in charge) deserve criticism for not focusing on the correct regulations for train safety. Requiring something that isn't needed doesn't help... It can hurt as it takes resources away from actual necessities, like sensors, and tighter maintenance inspections.

Did you just ask for a citation from a hypothetical universe?

Yeah how absurd of me to me to ask for their reasoning.

Not absurd at all to bring up another universe...

I ignored that silly part of their statement as you should have.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#602
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I mean, how do you do it? Do you walk into the offices with the army and force them out? Take all their assets? You realize you'd probably have people funded by the railroads storming the capital? It'd be like a revolution.

You buy out the shareholders in a compulsory acquisition. Fantasies about the army and revolutions are childish imagination run wild.

Hahaha for sure.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finally, what can these chemicals react into when in a blaze.

I've researched this recently. Thermal decomposition of Vinyl Chloride Monomer forms HCl, CO, CO2, and trace phosgene. Thermal decomposition of literally all the other chemicals listed produces CO and CO2. It's likely that a certain number of animal deaths in the area have been caused by HCl being absorbed by water (in lungs) and forming acid, or CO/CO2 displacing oxygen and suffocating them. As far as I have found,…

Thermal decomposition can be incomplete, and it appears to be the case. Also, thermal decomposition is different from burning. And HCl is already an acid, most probably you meant a water solution of HCl.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate Change & the war on CO2 has sucked the oxygen out of the room wrt pollution with dangerous chemicals. Many in the environmental community are optimizing a single metric, CO2 emissions, & not focusing on the myriad of chemicals that cause widespread ecological damage. That coupled with the ongoing doomsday hysteria over CO2, it is easy to lose focus on pressing issues & the complexities in dealing with these o…

I'd be really interested in why climate change is a hysteria and not well-founded fear. Well founded studies say we are currently on track to reach 4°C higher average temperature by 2100, and a plausible rise in sea levels of that would be around 40 meters. Completely ignoring all other effects, this would be a catastrophe on a level we can hardly achieve otherwise. And 2100 isn't an end date, it would be kind of nic…

> I'd be really interested in why climate change is a hysteria and not well-founded fear.

There are different types of criticism re: the claim of Anthropogenic Global Warming (which I'll refer to as APGW) & it's impacts. Mainly b/c APGW is a composition of claims, many of which are criticized to varying degrees.

My perspective is that throughout Earth's history, the climate has always been under a perpetual state of change, sometimes to far more drastic degrees than what we are witnessing today. About 200 years ago, we left a mini ice age (i.e. "the year without a summer"), which means that this point in the natural cycles is one of warming. I'm far more concerned about events coming from outer space & Sun, the current Geomagnetic excursion, & pollution than APGW. Other planets in our solar system are going through intensifying climate change right now.

I'm not confident that the state of climate science accounts for all inputs into the cycle...looking at the Sun's cycles, our changing position within the cosmos, cycles external to our solar system and the impacts on Earth's climate. Climate models have a terrible track record with predicting future trends. This complex system, where all of the inputs are not yet properly modeled, is not modeled in a way which gives predictive value. The media & politicians tend to sensationalize the most extreme "doomsday" models (i.e. Al Gore stating that snow will be a thing of the past & the glaciers will all melt by 2020).

The natural cycles (there are many factors) are also not properly modeled, as we have only had precise measurements & can only date ice core samples, for a period that does not incorporate a single period for each of the cycles.

The oceans are also a large reservoir of CO2 & CO2 escapes a liquid as the temperature rises. Given we have geologically recently left an ice age, CO2 will naturally escape from the oceans. I wonder if a large portion of the rise of CO2 comes from global warming (with CO2 escaping the oceans) and not the other way around.

There have been experiments that show that CO2 does increase the temperature of a system to some extent, but the warming has upper-bound limits & it is not a runaway phenomenon. I confirmed this by doing a PV=nRT & CO2 delta calculation on Venus & found that if CO2 is a runaway phenomenon, the temperature on Venus would be significantly higher than it is now.

That being said, experiments show that an increase of CO2 does increase the temperature of a system, but not in a runaway hockey stick graph sense, but in a logrithmic upper-bound sense.

My experience with many people is that they want to simplify their understanding of complex systems in a lossy manner. I feel like many of the fears around APGW is a lossy simplification that attracts people to make sense of nature's complexities. It is psychologically difficult to admit & consciously regard there is much that we don't yet know & are not accounting for..even more difficult to admit that Earth has had numerous widespread natural catastrophes that we would not be able to control. We want to be able to predict the future with our models, the simpler the model the better. The problem is sometimes the system being modeled is very complex & we have not yet recorded all of the cycles involved or accounted for all of the inputs. It is psychologically attractive & consistent with history for cultures to create a scape goat which must be sacrificed to appease the Gods & forestall impending doom.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#605
post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is vile bullshit - we need to invest trillions to possibly arrest climate change, so yes there will be a lot of money in it for someone.

Apologies for offending your religious beliefs but there are an awful lot of now very rich snake oil salesmen out there who are doing a lot more for their cronies wallets than for the planet. Be more mindful of where trillions of tax payer money is 'invested' would be my advice and try to see both sides of the religious divide. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11653723/How-Al-Gor...

To your point, where are the sanctimonious green agenda pushers, like Greta Thunberg & AOC, on this environmental disaster? The crickets are easy to hear. I thought they cared about the environment...

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#606
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EPA famously declared the air safe following 9/11. Their credibility is, at least for me personally, negligible. The flint water crisis and the Gold King Mine are other examples. People are rightfully worried and angered. Your dismissal of them as "losing their mind" or "hysterical" is at best tone deaf, and at worst an intentional tactic to downplay the event. Appeals to governmental authority falls flat when th…

The EPA has absolutely nothing to do with Flint.

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Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#607
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see many people talking about the fact that if this was anywhere close to wealthy people They don't put wealthy neighborhoods near railroads carrying toxic chemicals. Or rarely do they. Meanwhile, lower end neighborhoods will have the train tracks and some even a garbage dump within view.

> They don't put wealthy neighborhoods near railroads carrying toxic chemicals. Usually the causality is reversed... Railroads carrying toxic chemicals exist, and wealthy people are able to opt to invest in properties not near these undesirable things. I know that sounds pedantic, but it's important to note that "they" didn't "put" neighborhoods with preordained social classes somewhere... They zoned neighborhoods an…

That's a fair and great point.
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