Live data from Hacker News

Why I'm a Pirate

ploum.net

391–400 of 527 posts

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#391
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allow me to clarify--thank you for your feedback. The rights we're talking about here are not able to be compared to physical property rights because there is no mutual exclusion of access. If somebody steals my physical property, I can't use it, therefore they've harmed me and limited my actions. For knowledge, IP, etc. they cannot limit my access or permission, so I do not need to be put up guards. My core argument…

The non-rival argument is popular, but not very robust. There is an economic harm by an unauthorized third party increasing the supply and diluting the value to the creator. Another rough equivalent to criminally using without depleting physical goods is someone who breaks into your house to sleep in your bed while you are on vacation. Even if they are clean, and the bed remains the same afterwards for all reasonable…

So, again, we start to dig into some very deep taboos here, right?

Is it really that bad if somebody who needs a bed uses mine without permission while it lies unused, provided it isn't harmed and is returned to its initial condition?

We're big about virtualization and the cloud and shared hosting, right?

Why not consider something similar for worldly goods? It seems awfully inefficient, with 7 billion people, for everyone to have a unique, untouchable copy of everything.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#392
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Why is it that the folks defending copyright always pull out the "But then creators will take their balls and go home!" card? That's such a repugnant, faithless argument. Numerous examples exist of people creating in spite of the system--and even making a living doing the same!" Your logic is faulty - just because some people will continue to create in spite of the system does not mean all can continue to. Yes, in…

If the market evolves to not sustain AAA games, thems the breaks. I'm not following this argument. Both Wolfire and Mojang (Notch's company) sell games. They also provide free demos but their primary income comes from selling copyrighted works, not donations. So, to a point, they are effectively living off "donations" until they ship 1.0, right? Preorders are effectively donations to continue development.

afaik, pre-orders give you access to the "beta" version which is still very playable and will also give you access to the finished version when it is done.

All you get for free is an older version where you cannot do multiplayer or save your game. Basically a demo.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#393
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apply this same argument to someone who spends hundreds of hours working so that they can buy a car. This is all done out of self interest. Most people would not conclude that it's okay for someone that a car thief, who steals the car because it serves his self interest. That this is somehow rational and moral because one person's self interest is equivalent to another person's self interest. Of course people who are…

Your car analogy conflates scarce and non-scarce goods. A better car analogy would be that someone invents a way to create cars for $200 with 3D printers, and so everyone stops buying cars that cost 100x that much. "You wouldn't download a car" and all that. Of course, someone has to create the CAD designs or whatever, but that's a much smaller industry than all the manufacturing that existed before (so, of course, a…

I explicitly acknowledge the difference between scarce and non-scare goods in the above post if you could bother to read the second paragraph. The part you're leaving out in your 'improved' anology is that it might cost 10 years and ten million dollars to develop this $200 car.

Basically the great-grand-parent is saying that there's no rational or moral justification for someone profiting from innovation, because it's in someone else's self interest to take that innovation, and these two parties self interests cancel each other out to the exclusion of all other factors. I find that to be an extremely naive and simplistic argument.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is your belief that the creator's terms of use should reign supreme, that is legitimate, but if you want to argue for it then you need to actually argue for it. I wouldn't say that I missed your point, merely that I objected to a particular argument you used it making it. I realize this is a lower level of discourse than addressing your main point entirely, but I'm hoping that it would raise the level of discou…

They argue that way because their inflated claims have no merit. The only justification for copyright that doesn't amount to arrogant and unjustifiable claims of "creator privilege" (my phrase, but that is what their wordy arguments amount to) is that given in the US Constitution, as a practical matter "to promote the progress of science and useful arts by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclu…

Also, as far as lack of copyright crippling music, I am sure that would be astounding news to Vivaldi, Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven, among many others.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second an artist is trying to mass produce they are businessmen not artists anymore. The artist didn't make the ability to produce in large numbers and distribute at zero cost, that is what technology did. A technology that served the labels and musicians for one hundred years. Now it is turning on them and they start to complain. Bo freaking ho. People make music without making a single dime on it. Great music i…

Part of me hopes that your vision becomes reality and all financially backed art falls apart.. just so you, ThomPete, can live in a world that shitty and know that this is what you wanted. Enjoy your cat videos.

Yeah, a totally shitty world with those crappy pre-copyright amateurs like Shakespeare and without the great art of Justin Bieber. The horror, the horror.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#396
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you replace copyright with "terms of use" or something in a contract with the performer? I see the value of copyright (or other intellectual property protection, such as the "terms of use" I mentioned above) in this case, for two reasons. First, the value for the creative doesn't scale. Suppose a conductor commissioned some music to be written for six summer evening performances. How should the music writer val…

If it were really necessary (though I am unconvinced that it is) a royalty system could likely be emulated in a society with no copyright with contract and corporate law. Write a song for Metallica? Sell it to them in exchange for some amount of cash up front, and partial ownership in the company that is selling that particular album/single/whatever. Clumsy perhaps, but if big money is involved the overhead should be…

The problem with selling to Metallica is that you are selling something that you don't "own." Said another way, the value changes when you can offer exclusivity. It'll be worth less to the company producing the music if someone else can (legally) take the music also.

Now I wouldn't cry if the era of multi-million-dollar entertainers is over, but I think that it would be a mistake to throw all copyright out. Rework it maybe, but keep the idea that mental creations are assets just like physical creations are. The concept of copyright arose because there appeared to be a need to protect those rights when that protection was absent, so I would be very hesitant to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes time to reexamine our IP laws.

For me, the SOPA/PIPA issue is about due process. Taking a site offline can be damaging in ways that may be hard to quantify, so the standard of proof should be pretty high IMO.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason you are paid so much as a designer who works "for hire" either employed or as a freelancer is that your client wants something unique. Let's assume that there is no copyright. You get a contract from a client to design them a logo , website and smartphone app to promote their business. However your client knows that if a competitor wishes to copy their entire website including logo and app etc they…

A competitor can do that today. In fact that happens all the time, even among creatives. Do you know how many songs are stealing of each other? Should we tell musicians to pay for the licks and riffs they takes from someone else music and incorporate into his how?

Of course people create cover versions of songs or re-use a good riff, there is always an element of copying ideas but I think this is different to completely ripping something off 100% since you must still create the rest of the body of work around the original idea.

Of course you could argue how much imitation should be allowed before it is considered a copyright or patent violation.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it that the folks defending copyright always pull out the "But then creators will take their balls and go home!" card? That's such a repugnant, faithless argument. Numerous examples exist of people creating in spite of the system--and even making a living doing the same! So, the entire issue for indie developers (of whose ranks I count myself a member) can be solved by not making a product until you confirm th…

Not all creators take their balls and go home. But enough will for it to be notable. Yes, there are those who will either deal with piracy and those who will give away their work freely. Those people will never go away but in a world without copyright we may not have had a Steve Jobs or a Bill Gates to play such a crucial role in the development of products we all use and love. I'm sure someone else may have created…

(upvoted for effort, thank you sir/madam)

"There are competing interests between creators and consumers."

This part I don't quite get--what do consider the rights in conflict? Obviously there is the difference in what creators want to be paid and what consumers want to save, but is there something beyond this you intend...?

"When people argue about middle men screwing over artists and consumers we should be finding a way to either get rid of middle men or curb their power without totally obliterating copyright."

The problem I see is that copyright is primarily used these days to benefit the middlemen, right? Indeed, copyright (by its very nature) is aimed solely at benefiting whoever is in charge of distribution--it's about the right to copy.

As such, as technology attacks and removes middlemen, so too does it render obsolete the notion of copyright. If you empower consumers to handle their own distribution, the motivations for having copyright at all wither away and the legal machinery becomes vestigial.

"A lot of the rhetoric surrounding this seems to be focused on copyright but what I see is an anti-business position."

I am not qualified to speak on behalf of anyone claiming similar views. For my own part, though, it isn't about being anti-business--as Chesterson said: the problem isn't that there are too many capitalists; it's that there are too few.

I believe that copyright creates a barrier to entry in information economies that is vastly outweighed by the progress that comes from being able to openly improve and distribute works. Moreover, I believe that it allows business models that would not be practical in a free market.

I don't think we need to do away with business--I just believe that if you create IP you need to accept (as a given!) that you won't be able to control its dissemination, and model your business accordingly.

If you can provide support for it in the wild, better then the other guy, it's a viable business (see Red Hat, Ardor Labs, etc.)

If you can provide faster access and better UX for it, it's a viable business (see Steam, Netflix, etc.)

If you can't do any of that, but can offer a sense of engagement with the community while polishing the software and get paid by donations/preorders, it's a viable business (see Minecraft, Overgrowth, etc.)

Otherwise, you are literally building an entire business on scarcity the government provides and enforces. This doesn't strike me as sound.

While I disagree with you right now and I think your position is a little extreme I have to say that the work of people like you will get us to a point where that switch may become a real possibility.

I apologize that I'm so hardline on this, but I feel it the only rational position to take--tenable, perhaps not, but certainly the most rational.

"So I'm interested to learn more but i think this position isn't just one position but part of a package deal that comes with an entire worldview that I don't understand."

Thank you for keeping an open mind. :)

I've been wrestling with this for a few years now in one way or another.

My biggest suggestion is to start thinking about what is truly being sold, what value that truly has, and whether or not this system makes sense. Try to identify what makes that work, and who supports it, and how much excess exists along the way from the creator to the consumer.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#399

It's fine that the OP doesn't want to pay for media. But, the OP should not take it, no matter how easy it is to do. By all means, abstain from media. But do not steal.

His point is that he doesn't want to pay for distribution. He's more than happy to support artists directly.

Re: Why I'm a Pirate

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that once you pitch designs to one of your clients, it's fine with you if they photograph it, copy it, and never pay you a dime? People love design, and do great design without making a single dime on it. The rich designers are rich because professional networking, big companies and IP laws make them big. Not because they were the best of the crop. Boo Freaking Hoo. Real designers do it for love. Only phonie…

First of all I have had plenty of my ideas, designs etc. copied. I don't care cause at the end of the day it doesn't matter. I don't know why you guys keep arguing the same misguided argument. Here is the difference. When I design for a client I put in the work and design specifically to to them. I am in other words a performing artist. I don't just send them a CD with the same design I did for all my other clients.…

So to clarify: if you do work with the intent of selling it to one buyer it should be protected, but if you do work with the intent of selling it to two or more buyers it should not?
Post reply on HN