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Thoughts on getting laid off after nine years at Twilio

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Re: Thoughts on getting laid off after nine years at Twilio

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of this post what does "But never forget they're co-workers, not family." mean? What should the author have done differently and how would that have changed things?

It means you need to be cognizant of the fact that if it's in the company's best interest to let you go, they will. And this is not unusual or peculiar. This passage stood out to me: > The email said we'd lose access at 12:30pm. At 12:28 I decided, "I'll break up with you before you can dump me." I signed out and closed my work machine for the last time. > And then I started to cry. > I cried despite the generous sev…

It's not abundantly clear to me. The author probably enjoyed those nine years a lot more than someone who adopts a mercenary attitude would have. Human beings love belonging places.

What did this emotional investment cost him? Slightly more pain when the relationship ended (and it seems like they're already excited for what's next)?

Re: Thoughts on getting laid off after nine years at Twilio

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means you need to be cognizant of the fact that if it's in the company's best interest to let you go, they will. And this is not unusual or peculiar. This passage stood out to me: > The email said we'd lose access at 12:30pm. At 12:28 I decided, "I'll break up with you before you can dump me." I signed out and closed my work machine for the last time. > And then I started to cry. > I cried despite the generous sev…

It's not abundantly clear to me. The author probably enjoyed those nine years a lot more than someone who adopts a mercenary attitude would have. Human beings love belonging places. What did this emotional investment cost him? Slightly more pain when the relationship ended (and it seems like they're already excited for what's next)?

The emotional investment may have made him miss out on more interesting, better compensated, or otherwise more desirable jobs. And the pain at its end does not correspond to more enjoyment. I don't think a mercenary attitude diminishes the enjoyment of working at all. Like I said earlier, the Blackwater and Executive Outcomes guys probably enjoy their jobs just as much as typical soldiers - possibly even more. I don't this this is a trade off between more enjoyment and greater emotional damage at the end. It's just as much enjoyment, better impact on his life situation, and less pain when his job ends. A strictly better set of outcomes.

Re: Thoughts on getting laid off after nine years at Twilio

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone staying more than a year is loyal in my book. And plenty stay more than a year.

Which actually illustrates the "no loyalty" point. A year is nothing. Staying that long doesn't demonstrate anything. But nobody should be "loyal" to companies. Companies are certainly not "loyal" to them. To be clear, when I'm on the clock at a company, I'm all in -- they're paying me to be. But off the clock, no. And I have no problem leaving a position when it's no longer beneficial to me. And employer-employee re…

As it should be.

Re: Thoughts on getting laid off after nine years at Twilio

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many positions, and at many points in your career, job hopping or the threat of it is the only real way to get any noticeable raise in actual compensation. Most companies just don't really reward loyalty anymore.

What is it, 80s? There is no “company loyalty” since 2000s, and soon there will be no “jobs” in general. We are all contractors and mercenaries now.

There are some companies that behave like its still the 1960's, and try retain employees for the long term (a "job for life").

They are a vanishingly small minority, and usually not tech companies - but traditional companies that use technology and have in house dev teams.

Re: Thoughts on getting laid off after nine years at Twilio

#135

I wonder if large companies recognise they are shitting in the pond they are floating in. As somebody with over quarter of century of experience managing and hiring people I notice how candidates change over time (trying to adjust for how I change myself). I notice people care less about the company they work for and, honestly, it is more and more difficult to find arguments against. This whole trend of optimising ev…

> You can pay people more to keep them at your company for a while longer, but there is very little you can do to overcome their inherent cynicism.

Exactly, after 2 decades in this industry I've learned to let myself go with the flow of my build-up of cynicism.

I hate interviewing, from both sides, so I tend to stay longer than what most other tech workers do (my stints vary between 2-4 years in general) but it's absurd how the pattern always repeat: I start a new job with a lot of motivation to learn the business, learn how I can have good impact in the product, foster discussions; just to eventually get jaded by management, start being cynical and working with the mindset "it's just a job, do what's expected, take the cash" until eventually I overcome my hatred of interviews and start looking for something else.

What surprises me is how long I can keep the game of doing the bare minimum after getting cynical, I don't stop delivering but I know for sure if I was more motivated/less jaded I could deliver more, hell, I've done it at multiple places but it's extremely hard to not get affected by seemingly stupid decisions from upper management. I do my job well because I care about my colleagues and don't want them to have extra work, I don't do my job well for the companies sake or bottom line, not for the past 10-15 years at least. I simply don't care about the business at some point.

Re: Thoughts on getting laid off after nine years at Twilio

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm only 25 and have had 6 jobs. The longest I've stayed at a company was a year. Just the way we have grown up in the industry, all the smart people giving advice on the internet say to not bother getting raises or promotions, just go and interview and it'll be much more efficient. And it has, I've gotten massive pay bumps every time. How can you for stay loyal to a company when they give a measly 3% raise? And make…

Each to their own, but I wouldn't hire you - I wouldn't even interview you. You do get to a point where you earn enough and can't be bothered to prove yourself at a new place yet again. It does get tired and boring as you realize that working life isn't really a pursuit that is your most important life goal.

> Each to their own, but I wouldn't hire you

It's okay, a lot of other companies do. There's plenty of fish in this particular ocean.

Even if you would hire him, nothing meaningful would change.

Re: Thoughts on getting laid off after nine years at Twilio

#138

I wonder if large companies recognise they are shitting in the pond they are floating in. As somebody with over quarter of century of experience managing and hiring people I notice how candidates change over time (trying to adjust for how I change myself). I notice people care less about the company they work for and, honestly, it is more and more difficult to find arguments against. This whole trend of optimising ev…

While I think you are right along I'd like to offer a different perspective of what's happening. A lot of what you've said is true-- candidates have changed over time, people are caring less about the company, and the general conscience has definitely shifted towards lesser company loyalty.

We, especially Hacker News's readers, workers in tech and tech-adjacent roles are very much a small percentage. If you've read older books, especially autobiographies, biographies, and journal-like books you'll likely see that the following:

> This whole trend of optimising everything to the max without caring for people is going to create an employee base that is completely disillusioned about their role or prospects or what's their best strategy for life.

already existed even before during the great industrial revolution. It's very much related to human nature I think. On another point:

> Any company needs some people who care about what they do. But these are in shorter and shorter supply every year, it seems.

Surprisingly, there ARE a lot of people like this, the biggest problem I've found (having been in the hiring seat) is their competence and skills do not match what the companies need and are looking for. This is also correlated to why outsourcing has become such a big part of large companies today. Not just the cost benefits. Unfortunately, a lot of companies don't invest into training and investment and likely if they already are, they cannot get employees to commit because of wages (financials for both the company and employee).

> It is no way to have a productive employee base.

We are still largely far away from this and likely why cities will still be playing a big part of greater economic change even amidst remote work. I even might venture to write that we have yet to truly see one besides what currently exists akin to Silicon Valley, MIC, and adjacent employee bases.

Anyway, I lost my train of thought now. Feel free to discuss

Re: Thoughts on getting laid off after nine years at Twilio

#139
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much take a mercenary approach to my jobs. At my very first software job I remember seeing a let go employee walking sadly through the office with a box of his possessions under one arm and a potted plant in the other. Since then I have brought nothing personal into work. If I'm let go I just have to grab my keys and I'm out. Work is something I do to earn money. If companies can replace people for less or cut…

> I would love to work in an environment where I felt valued as a person but I have yet to find that. Start your own business.

+1 on this, I'd add if you ever do try to do it in a non-technical industry/business and use your technology/software experience as a means to create more efficiency for the business.

Re: Thoughts on getting laid off after nine years at Twilio

#140

I wonder if large companies recognise they are shitting in the pond they are floating in. As somebody with over quarter of century of experience managing and hiring people I notice how candidates change over time (trying to adjust for how I change myself). I notice people care less about the company they work for and, honestly, it is more and more difficult to find arguments against. This whole trend of optimising ev…

I feel like there’s something weird going on in most companies above a certain size. I’ve worked at small companies with a wonderful culture and people put in lots of work to get a beautiful product shipped. But then when the company grows something changes and pushes those original passionate people out. Everyone else sees the passionate people get treated bad and react appropriately. Suddenly the large company carv…

It's definitely noticeable beyond a certain number. I like to say it's partly a human nature thing. There's some theory/law/term for this where the minority (whether negative or positive) ends up operating as majority and influencing business decisions.
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