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Nicola Sturgeon to resign as Scotland's first minister

bbc.co.uk

21–30 of 45 posts

Re: Nicola Sturgeon to resign as Scotland's first minister

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My hobby horse is more representative voting systems and the one in place in Scotland encourages people to aim for broad suppport rather than be loved and hated by a minority.

How does it do that? Some sort of ranked choice?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additional_member_system

It's a hybrid first past the post and propertional system. Not perfect, but what voting system is?

Re: Nicola Sturgeon to resign as Scotland's first minister

#23

As an Englishman, I've been impressed with how mature and competent the Scottish leaders have seemed in comparison with their English counterparts; I don't know if it's a systemic or cultural thing (or just my imagination), but as a representative of that tendency I'm sad to see her go.

To be honest, in comparison to the last 5 years of the Tory part, Sturgeon is quite competent. The only proper scandal I remember is the Salmond case, and then in terms of being incompetent the only thing which is undisputable is how badly she has handled the Scottish drug policy/crisis.

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Re: Nicola Sturgeon to resign as Scotland's first minister

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Margaret Thatcher? I personally don't agree with all her ideas, but she has rescued the UK out of the mess they were in in the early '80s, and she managed to do it in an extremely hostile environment.

If you're having a discussion with people who like Sturgeon & Ardern, who have some issues with Merkel & May, raising one of the most hated women in recent history seems an unusual take. Thatcher (& Reagan) are rightly recognised today as being responsible for untold suffering. Even the UK Conservative party (Hague) have since spoken out against her approach. She didn't "rescue" the UK from anything, unless when you…

That's nonsense, there are lots of people in the UK who rate Thatcher as one of the best PMs ever. The UK finished the 80s in a drastically better position than at the start in terms of poverty and employment, the latter of which only skyrocketed at the start of her first term because the previous government was socialist, and had been manipulating the economy to prioritize people putting in jobs even if those jobs were useless. The USSR also had low unemployment, but that doesn't mean they had a good economy.

Re: Nicola Sturgeon to resign as Scotland's first minister

#25

As an Englishman, I've been impressed with how mature and competent the Scottish leaders have seemed in comparison with their English counterparts; I don't know if it's a systemic or cultural thing (or just my imagination), but as a representative of that tendency I'm sad to see her go.

Sturgeon was competent at enforcing party unity and winning Scottish elections. But in terms of actually achieving things for Scotland, both her and the SNP have failed. It's a one issue party so in terms of independence:

- Support for independence is now lower than when she took the reigns. That by itself must count as failure on the SNP's own terms.

- Lost the "once in a generation" referendum and then refused to accept the result, campaigning for years for a second referendum she had already agreed wouldn't happen.

- Made zero progress on reducing subsidy dependency on England, creating the widespread impression that the SNP doesn't really want Scotland to be independent. Many other specific issues around independence also have been ignored despite the lack of answers being one of the issues causing their referendum loss.

- Done everything possible to piss off the neighbours across the border, like encouraging anti-English rhetoric that would be considered grotesquely racist if there was a skin color difference.

And in non-referendum areas:

- Poverty and poor health are worse in Scotland than England.

- She said she wanted to be judged on closing education gaps, but they didn't close.

- The economy is worse.

- Social policy is totally reactive. Under Sturgeon the SNP just tended to copy whatever England was doing but making it more extreme, without any obvious guiding principles. The gender self-ID fiasco is a good example of that. 2/3rds of voters are against it and Salmond says it's done more damage to the independence campaign than anything else (which says a lot about the strength of that campaign). She didn't think through the consequences and when faced with the reality of what it means in the Isla Bryson case, flailed around and couldn't articulate a coherent response. Total incompetence.

- Scotland has quietly developed a reputation for corruption and weak institutions, with problems you don't see elsewhere in the country.

The nasty Salmond/Sturgeon affair was one example, and her resignation is likely triggered by the police finally starting to investigate where £600,000 of donated money was apparently embezzled to. The way she "can't recall" that her husband lent over £100,000 to the SNP is another symptom of this sort of thing.

Re: Nicola Sturgeon to resign as Scotland's first minister

#26

As an Englishman, I've been impressed with how mature and competent the Scottish leaders have seemed in comparison with their English counterparts; I don't know if it's a systemic or cultural thing (or just my imagination), but as a representative of that tendency I'm sad to see her go.

Sturgeon was competent at enforcing party unity and winning Scottish elections. But in terms of actually achieving things for Scotland, both her and the SNP have failed. It's a one issue party so in terms of independence: - Support for independence is now lower than when she took the reigns. That by itself must count as failure on the SNP's own terms. - Lost the "once in a generation" referendum and then refused to a…

> - Lost the "once in a generation" referendum and then refused to accept the result, campaigning for years for a second referendum she had already agreed wouldn't happen.

Many voted no to remain in the EU, only to have the rug pulled out from under them anyway. That surely justifies a redo.

Re: Nicola Sturgeon to resign as Scotland's first minister

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sturgeon was competent at enforcing party unity and winning Scottish elections. But in terms of actually achieving things for Scotland, both her and the SNP have failed. It's a one issue party so in terms of independence: - Support for independence is now lower than when she took the reigns. That by itself must count as failure on the SNP's own terms. - Lost the "once in a generation" referendum and then refused to a…

> - Lost the "once in a generation" referendum and then refused to accept the result, campaigning for years for a second referendum she had already agreed wouldn't happen. Many voted no to remain in the EU, only to have the rug pulled out from under them anyway. That surely justifies a redo.

It's not relevant to the point I made though is it? She promised to respect the result for the long term and that was a bald-faced lie made for pure political advantage.

But to address your point: why? They knew when voting that there was likely to be a referendum on the EU in the future, the pressure for that had been building for years, and Scotland has its own eurosceptics that wanted to remain in the UK and also leave the EU.

Also, the idea of an "independence" movement that wants to immediately give up that independence to join another union seems like a contradiction. The SNP is the Scottish Nationalist Party but the EU hates nationalists, they routinely say things like this:

https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/900356981461884928

> 'Nationalism is like alcoholism: a short period of exaltation followed by a long period of headaches' - @TimmermansEU against nationalism.

If the SNP was a coherent party with a principled set of positions it would have needed to resolve this contradiction at some point, but like many other such contradictions they never did. It doesn't act like a nationalist party, it acts like a bog standard centre left party (hard left on id politics), with relatively little interest in any theory of nations.

Re: Nicola Sturgeon to resign as Scotland's first minister

#28
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that women have seemed relatively impressive at the top when they have stuck compared to their male counterparts; again, I don't know if that is coincidental, or representative of something we should learn from.

Theresa May is certainly the exception on that list. She's widely regarded (next to Liz Truss) as one of the most ineffectual Prime Ministers of the last fifty years.

Merkel made very serious strategic mistakes that have cost Germany and Europe a lot and are still costing a lot. Russia, energy policy, open door policy on immigrants (which has played a part in precipitating Brexit), she got pretty much every important, strategic issue wrong.

Re: Nicola Sturgeon to resign as Scotland's first minister

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't include May (see my reply to a sibling comment), but otherwise the only other person that seems slightly odd in that list is Merkel for being a christian conservative, but - even as a leftist - she's still one of the only one leaders I can think of that I would actually respect the integrity of (individual political stances aside). So the list seems relatively sound. I presume you're seeing gender when you…

Margaret Thatcher? I personally don't agree with all her ideas, but she has rescued the UK out of the mess they were in in the early '80s, and she managed to do it in an extremely hostile environment.

I personally think that she laid the groundwork for some of the problems we're seeing today. She 'sold the family silver' which creates short-term gains, but in the end you've damaged long-term foundations of the economy: housing, industrial capability, investment in infrastructure etc.

Re: Nicola Sturgeon to resign as Scotland's first minister

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it do that? Some sort of ranked choice?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additional_member_system It's a hybrid first past the post and propertional system. Not perfect, but what voting system is?

> Not perfect, but what voting system is?

None: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theore...

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