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50% rejection rate for iPhone casings produced in India shows Apple’s challenge

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Re: 50% rejection rate for iPhone casings produced in India shows Apple’s challenge

#81

Post by blobbers »

delecti wrote: post #69
manuelabeledo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that most people who have interacted with remote teams based in India, have had the same experiences. I'm honestly surprised that Apple didn't choose Vietnam or Indonesia over India.

The worst I could say about the India based teams I've worked with is that some were to-the-letter to a fault. Anything not explicitly stated was skipped, where you'd typically expect a dev to fill in the unstated but obvious things that you only discover while working a task. But that was at Amazon. At my current gig, the India based teams are great. Not quite up to the standards of the US teams, but I'm sure they'r…

You're willing to throw amazon under the bus, but what company are you at now?

Re: 50% rejection rate for iPhone casings produced in India shows Apple’s challenge

#82

Post by hangonhn »

smoldesu wrote: post #40
satvikpendem wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've heard, China also used to be like that, sending out cheap samples that didn't meet the specification, and the manufacturers there would tell you that they'd do it correctly next time, just for the same thing to happen again. But eventually they were able to do a good job. Give it time, Indian manufacturing is simply not as advanced as China's right now but it will be if enough investment is made.

China's government effectively owns all of those factories. When something goes wrong, they put their hands directly into the machine to fix it. Hopefully India's government doesn't follow in their footsteps, Apple's Chinese manufacturers have a spotty track record vis-a-vis exploiting executive power.

It's actually the opposite that's true. It was when the Chinese government let go of economy that China got good at manufacturing. I do wonder if India's legacy of heavy state intervention might be the cause of the current issue (from the little that I know about India) and if they would follow a similar trajectory as more companies start to compete. I don't know enough about India to comment on the latter part but my family is ethnic Chinese and we own factories in China. State intervention is definitely not why manufacturing improved in China. There is fierce competition among the companies. Talented managers and leaders are lured away with big salary increases or start their own companies, etc. Ironically, in the beginning a lot of managers who worked for state companies were lured away by enterprising business people to get their factories started. Those same managers would quickly ram up and become more productive once they were motivated with bonuses and freedom to manage, etc.

I would not be too negative on India. I don't see a reason why things won't improve with enough time and motivation.

Re: 50% rejection rate for iPhone casings produced in India shows Apple’s challenge

#83

Post by ReptileMan »

manuelabeledo wrote: post #35
blobbers wrote: post #25

Anyone who's read outsourced code can vouch for the similar QC problems. I work with a lot of great Indian software developers; none of them worked IN India itself; they tend to be the ones that are skilled enough to quickly realize they're able to command massively higher wages by leaving India. India, despite it's reputation as a software outsourcing location has never been able to produce exportable quality beside…

I suspect that most people who have interacted with remote teams based in India, have had the same experiences. I'm honestly surprised that Apple didn't choose Vietnam or Indonesia over India.

Not been involved in manufacturing there. But was very pleasantly surprised by the quality of IT and datacenters in Jakarta.

Re: 50% rejection rate for iPhone casings produced in India shows Apple’s challenge

#84

Post by Espressosaurus »

logifail wrote: post #29
Espressosaurus wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When first qualifying a supplier, I expect IQC to fairly exhaustively test every incoming part. As the supplier gets better at OQC you can start dialing back your IQC. This is all fairly normal for large scale manufacturing in my experience. You want everything to meet spec, but the spec won't cover everything, and especially at the beginning the supplier may or may not even be able to meet spec in volume.

> This is all fairly normal for large scale manufacturing in my experience Indeed. So why does the original article claim that the "problem" is due to differing attitudes of Indian vs Chinese suppliers? EDIT: Wouldn't the "problem" likely also occur if you were to switch from one Chinese supplier to another [completely unrelated] Chinese supplier?

It depends on how good their process control is. A low yield rate indicates poor process control, and that will vary from supplier to supplier.

Re: 50% rejection rate for iPhone casings produced in India shows Apple’s challenge

#85

Post by kamakazizuru »

This is an article that paraphrases another article from the Financial Times (https://archive.is/iuXAm) both of which lack any real sources or facts from Apple themselves. The only people quoted are a random Bain consultant and Vivek Wadhwa who basically shows up with an opinion whenever anyone says "India" - regardless of whether he actually understands the industry or not.

None of this is to say that the problems might not be real, but bear in mind that China literally started producing electronics in the 80s, a 40 year headstart. And even then, until the early 2000s even in India Chinese goods had the reputation of being low quality, and for good reason. It takes years of experience on multiple levels to achieve the level of production that Apple targets. But it's not unachievable, even in India.

The country has pulled this off in other sectors - IT, Aerospace, Automotives and Pharmaceuticals to name a few.

This is HN so the moment I say IT and India in the same sentence a megathread of outsourcing woes will start to form. But Tech in India is much more than outsourcing for the last 2 decades - solid tech companies serving global and local markets like Freshworks, Zomato, Zoho, BharatPe, RazorPay, Chargebee etc have emerged.

Apple is big enough and has sufficient resources to have known that manufacturing in India will have a learning curve. It's not like they sent a team of 5 engineers on a plane and told them to go get it built. Apple has been operating in the country for well over a decade now - it's only just starting to scale things up on the production side. This will also pass.

Re: 50% rejection rate for iPhone casings produced in India shows Apple’s challenge

#86

Post by [deleted] »

delecti wrote: post #69
manuelabeledo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that most people who have interacted with remote teams based in India, have had the same experiences. I'm honestly surprised that Apple didn't choose Vietnam or Indonesia over India.

The worst I could say about the India based teams I've worked with is that some were to-the-letter to a fault. Anything not explicitly stated was skipped, where you'd typically expect a dev to fill in the unstated but obvious things that you only discover while working a task. But that was at Amazon. At my current gig, the India based teams are great. Not quite up to the standards of the US teams, but I'm sure they'r…

[deleted]

Re: 50% rejection rate for iPhone casings produced in India shows Apple’s challenge

#87

Post by jpgvm »

qqtt wrote: post #24
jpgvm wrote: post #4

Thing is this is also still the really basic stuff. It's only going to get worse as they attempt to shift more complicated things. People tend to drastically underestimate the both the scale and sophistication of manufacturing in China. For certain products the only reasonable alternatives to China are going to be South Korea and Japan in the medium term as they are the only other hubs with the required sophisticatio…

Do you think Apple is drastically underestimating the scale and sophistication required to move their manufacturing? Do you think Tim Cook made a strategic error here, owing partially to his lack of understanding of the involvement of these processes? There will be growing pains moving and scaling manufacturing anywhere. The fact that there are early obstacles and hurdles does not mean we should simply throw up our h…

I believe Apples decision isn't based on viability of moving manufacturing to India but rather requirements of the Indian government to access that market.

Re: 50% rejection rate for iPhone casings produced in India shows Apple’s challenge

#88

Post by ilamont »

valdiorn wrote: post #36
blobbers wrote: post #25

Anyone who's read outsourced code can vouch for the similar QC problems. I work with a lot of great Indian software developers; none of them worked IN India itself; they tend to be the ones that are skilled enough to quickly realize they're able to command massively higher wages by leaving India. India, despite it's reputation as a software outsourcing location has never been able to produce exportable quality beside…

They've done well in the pharma industry recently, but it's their one major success.

No. There have been years of serious quality problems at certain Indian manufacturers. Here's a case from 10 years ago:

During a visit to a facility of leading Indian drugmaker Ranbaxy Laboratories Ltd last year, U.S. inspectors found that a black fiber embedded in a tablet may have been a hair from an employee’s arm, according to documents seen by Reuters. ....

The Mohali plant, in the northern state of Punjab, had not been making U.S. exports since last November, when it voluntarily recalled its generic version of cholesterol-lowering drug Lipitor in the United States due to the potential presence of glass particles in certain batches.

Here's another case from last year:

A parliamentary committee in Gambia said on Tuesday that India-based drug maker Maiden Pharmaceuticals Ltd was responsible for the deaths of at least 70 children from acute kidney injury and called on the government to pursue legal action.

According to a WHO report, "labs contracted by it in Ghana and Switzerland found excess levels of ethyleneglycol and diethyleneglycol contaminants in the Maiden syrups."

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/gambia-lawmakers-say-ma...

Note that the plant cited in the 2013 case was majority owned by a Japanese pharmaceutical company. They still couldn't get QC right.

Re: 50% rejection rate for iPhone casings produced in India shows Apple’s challenge

#89

Post by kepler1 »

I think there's something challenging to put my finger on about India, which is something like:

"When you have an overall country atmosphere where you (even if you are conscientious and care) think others are not conscientious and do not care, then you will come to not be conscientious and care either."

So there is an effect where enough people disobey rules or lack standards, that eventually no one follows the rules. Traffic is ridiculous because no one obeys the rules, manufacturing is subpar because no one thinks anyone else will care (or will put up with shoddy deliveries).

And this is not some racist / cultural prejudice. It is totally changeable. The evidence I have here is that people from India, when living in the US, completely adapt and become "positive rule-wanting people". There is something about a critical mass of rule-breakers that sends a system into a negative spiral. As others said, probably China was like that too at some time in the recent past. And even the US was (or might become) this way.

The opposite effect is also in force: when you live in Japan, for example, even as a visitor, and see that no one is littering on the public streets, even when they do not provide trash cans, you don't litter either. But let a certain viral % of rule breakers take hold, and if your group culture does not value what is being broken, you can descend into a loss of discipline.

Again, this is not some prejudice -- it is a human factors / malleable / totally changeable thing. But it will take decades I think. And have lots of forces trying to stop it from improving. Sometimes I think you need to create an isolated bubble where enough people agree and see how it can work, to propagate it elsewhere. Otherwise the forces of mediocrity pull you back down into chaos.

Re: 50% rejection rate for iPhone casings produced in India shows Apple’s challenge

#90

Post by ubermonkey »

malfist wrote: post #67
blobbers wrote: post #25

Anyone who's read outsourced code can vouch for the similar QC problems. I work with a lot of great Indian software developers; none of them worked IN India itself; they tend to be the ones that are skilled enough to quickly realize they're able to command massively higher wages by leaving India. India, despite it's reputation as a software outsourcing location has never been able to produce exportable quality beside…

I say this as the whitest white man ever, so please correct me if I'm being discriminatory. I understand it's also a culture issue. India has a culture of never telling clients "no" for anything, even if they know they can't do it. So you ask for something insanely complex, and your contractor in India will throw a mountain of buggy code at you. I wouldn't be surprise if that's also the issue here.

We had some Indian devs in a subsidiary for years, and that absolutely tracks.

Cross-cultural communication is an actual field of study, you know? But in this case, with the unwillingness to say "no", it's a killer. We ended up cutting them loose because even though they were cheaper per hour than US-based resources, we couldn't make the progress we needed to make. One US dev because 3, and that became a whole team, and that's how we decided to continue.

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