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Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

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Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#101

Post by gruez »

colpabar wrote: post #29
Workaccount2 wrote: post #15

Before everyone loses there mind, because this story has oddly been on blast 2 weeks after the incident: VC is a gas a room temperature. None of the VC cars were ruptured in the crash. They were vented and ignited by workers to avoid explosion. Burning VC produces carbon oxides, HCl, phosgene, and formaldehyde. HCl, Phosgene become hydrochloric acid in the atmosphere. The total amount of hydrochloric acid this could…

The reason people are so upset isn't necessarily because of the environmental impact, it's because the people who work on these trains have been warning things like this could happen for years, and when they tried to strike over it, the federal government stepped in and crushed them into submission. There was a car on that train that was on fire for at least 20 miles before the derailment. If I can get pulled over fo…

>The reason people are so upset isn't necessarily because of the environmental impact, it's because the people who work on these trains have been warning things like this could happen for years, and when they tried to strike over it, the federal government stepped in and crushed them into submission. There was a car on that train that was on fire for at least 20 miles before the derailment. If I can get pulled over for having a busted tail light, a train full of toxic chemicals should get stopped for being on fire.

This feels like a motte and bailey. A quick skim of the comments in this thread that people are equally worried about the health impacts from the accident specifically, as about the general plight of railway workers and/or the state of safety on railways. The NPR article also largely talks about health impacts from the specific accident rather than systemic safety issues. I'm not saying that people aren't outraged about the systemic safety issues on railways, but it's pretty clear that the main thing on people's mind is the immediate environmental impacts.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#102

Post by colpabar »

Bonooru wrote: post #96
pdabbadabba wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason people are so upset isn't necessarily because of the environmental impact, it's because the people who work on these trains have been warning things like this could happen for years, and when they tried to strike over it, the federal government stepped in and crushed them into submission. I've seen a few people say this. I'm sympathetic to the rail workers but, what's the evidence that this derailment ha…

If there is any chance that human error contributed to this disaster (either via the people there or maintenance deferred or done less than perfectly), then "a more humane work schedule" would have made that less likely due to everyone involved being well rested.

It's funny yet sad at how differently HN reacts to a company making its employees go into the office than this. Maybe that's how we should frame it - "railroads force employees back into office, even when sick" might garner some more sympathy.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#103

Post by unethical_ban »

thepasswordis wrote: post #88
unethical_ban wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should not be seen as business as usual when these kinds of things happen. It was at least tolerable due to my ignorance when you talked about these chemicals boiling off, but then to say "no biggie that petroleum spilled everywhere, I'm sure it burned off too." The whistle has been blown on the rails and the rail companies for some time, and now a catastrophe has occurred. We should be severely punishing the rail…

[flagged]

In theory, I don't see government ownership of society-critical industries with no opportunity for competition to be crazy. Tell me how you'd spin up a competing national rail line network.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#104

Post by themitigating »

cshimmin wrote: post #66
themitigating wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People are upset because it's another case of the government completely failing to do their jobs of keeping regular people safe, " Even though this is a private company you only blamed the government?

I think this comment is referring to the govt blocking the rail workers from taking collective action against the private companies.

and what does that have to do with the crash?

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#105

Post by slantedview »

falcolas wrote: post #45
takoid wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the USDOT press release from 2017 on this: https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/news/usdot-announces-intent-repeal... Can anyone speak to whether these electronically controlled pneumatic brakes would have prevented or lessened the severity of this derailment in Ohio?

The cause was an overheated wheel bearing melting and dislodging the axle, causing a derailment. The overheating was detected, and ignored. The quote is, as I recall, "The next sensor will detect it if it's a problem." Could the electric brakes have helped? Not sure in this specific case. In other cases? Probably. Air brakes are remarkably cool technology (how the valves work still boggles me from time to time) but t…

There were more factors to this derailment than the ones you mention. In recent years train companies have forced longer trains than ever to be driven by a single worker, the sort of thing that would make it hard to notice a train car is on fire. They've also forced train car inspections, the sort of thing that might catch a faulty bearing, to be done faster than ever, in the push for endlessly increasing profits.

The workers were raising these and other complaints last year, and our national leaders told them to take a hike, preventing them from striking.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#106

Post by dfxm12 »

cmmeur01 wrote: post #74
dfxm12 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The make up of the federal government changes greatly every two years. Our states probably have a similar turnover. This is why it's important to vote, not only in general elections, but also primary elections. Seats shouldn't be safe for incumbents who let this happen or anyone who takes huge donations from the billionaires or hedge funds you're talking about. Edit: I mean: the makeup of our government may change gr…

The class of people in the government doesn’t change.

Maybe in your district this is true (and some districts are more homogenous than others, for sure), but I'll challenge you to really take a look at the candidates of your next primary election. You'll probably find find meaningful differences between their political philosophies, even if class isn't among them. As an example, though, AOC and Joe Crowley are different in many meaningful ways. As are Connor Lamb and John Fetterman. These are cases where I think people of the political insider class were defeated by challengers that people didn't think fit the proper mold.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#107

Post by MrOwnPut »

Sakos wrote: post #77
xwdv wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalizing is an overreach. This is why events like this have to be downplayed because if you don’t the vultures will swoop in with their own agendas and try to stir up emotions to garner support for unpopular causes.

[flagged]

Airlines are regulated heavily and safe without nationalizing / seizing ownership.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#108

Post by Julesman »

I see a lot of these responses starting with "The reason." I don't see many people talking about institutional bias. I don't see a lot of people talking about this disaster getting no coverage while the media is stuck on shooting down balloons. I don't see many people talking about the fact that if this was anywhere close to wealthy people that it would have been headline news. I don't see many talking about the absolutely soulless response of everyone responsible. I don't see many talking about historical precedents that paint a clear picture of what is likely happening. I don't see many talking about how the best coverage of the event has been on Tiktok and that people on the ground might have something valuable to report.

This is NOT s trivial thing in any way. This is not a wait and see thing. This is a total disaster that will impact the health of people in the area for generations. And without any pushback the terrible people responsible well likely just get away with it.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#109

Post by perihelions »

gruez wrote: post #85
perihelions wrote: post #7

- "On Sunday, the EPA released a list, written by Norfolk Southern, of the toxic chemicals that were in the derailed cars. In addition to vinyl chloride and butyl acrylate, it mentions ethylhexyl acrylate, which can cause headaches, nausea, and respiratory problems in people exposed to it; as well as isobutylene, which can make people dizzy and drowsy." This is anodyne phrasing that omits the lede, which is that this…

>Another notable diff is that ABC describes ethylhexyl acrylate as a "carcinogen", linking to a CDC page as a cite The linked CDC source doesn't really definitively say it's a carcinogen. The exact quote is "potential occupational carcinogen as defined by the OSHA carcinogen policy [29 CFR 1990]". Also, it's worth noting that the page is for "Ethyl acrylate", not "ethylhexyl acrylate". A google search for "ethylhexyl…

That's an egregious error. Good catch!

At any rate, 2-ethylhexyl acrylate is *also* a "Group 2B: possibly carcinogenic". (I'd assume it's just the functional group that's interesting here, and the whole class is carcinogenic).

- "Methyl acrylate, ethyl acrylate, 2-ethylhexyl acrylate, technical-grade TMPTA, and isobutyl nitrite were classified as “possibly carcinogenic to humans” (Group 2B), based on “sufficient evidence” of carcinogenicity in experimental animals and no data or inadequate evidence in humans."

https://sci-hub.ru/10.1016/s1470-2045(18)30491-1 ("Carcinogenicity of isobutyl nitrite, β-picoline, and some acrylates." The Lancet Oncology 19.8 (2018): 1020-1022.")

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#110

Post by slantedview »

themitigating wrote: post #63
passwordoops wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Biden, through the Department of Transport and Pete Buttigieg couldn't put those regulations back in place? Or were right in forcing striking rail workers back to work instead of, oh I don't know, supported them on basic issues like safety? Yes Republicans are bad. But so are Dems, and their voters refusing to hold the party accountable for obvious failures. It's why the country is going to shift. R's pass bad pol…

How do you know the crash was the result of missing regulations? Republicans are against government regulations,you know "big government" and all that, so why would they do a better job?

> How do you know the crash was the result of missing regulations?

"“Would ECP brakes have reduced the severity of this accident? Yes,” Steven Ditmeyer, a former senior official at the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), told The Lever."

https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rule...

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