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Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

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Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#91

Post by kingstoned »

realslimjd wrote: post #73
elif wrote: post #2

As someone who has only worked in "right to work" states, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek "job security" through a 3rd party agency rather than by individual performance and developing personal relationships. Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Am I just Stockholm Syndromed?

Unions can and do exist in right to work states. The point of a union is not job security. It's about giving workers collective power they may not otherwise have. Historically unions have been painted as extremely antagonistic towards companies in the United States, but there's no reason that has to be true. A well-run union recognizes that their survival is tied to the company's survival, and as long as both sides e…

  The point of a union is not job security. It's about giving workers collective power they may not otherwise have.
What would people do with this theoretical collective power? Probably job security combined with restrictions on work. Do as little as you can while being guaranteed a paycheck.

  What people want is protection from being fired for no reason.
How can people be fired for no reason? There is always a reason, whether it's related to company's performance, worker productivity or overall economic conditions.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#93

Post by GAN_Game »

leereeves wrote: post #28
GAN_Game wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Unproductive? Then you must really be exercised about the heirs who own the majority of stock, who can and often do siphon off the created wealth of those working and creating wealth, via dividend profit of expropriated surplus labor time. Oh, I see no such complaint. Just some co-workers who are "unproductive".

Have you seen the margins on businesses old enough to be owned by heirs? They're only "siphoning off" a few percent. Edit: I misunderstood. I thought the complaint was that the heirs were taking a lot of created wealth from each worker. Not simply that they were wealthy.

If you have thousands working and creating wealth, and then a handful of heirs not working, and siphoning off expropriated surplus labor time of those who do work, then the heirs have a pretty good deal going for themselves. A couple percent of the created wealth of a few thousand workers just for one person? That adds up quick.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#94

Post by leereeves »

malermeister wrote: post #86
leereeves wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who specifically are you thinking of? Every founder I can think of was born in the middle or upper middle class.

Elon Musk's dad was a South African millionaire. Bill Gates' mom was on the board of directors of a bank and gave him an intro to IBM execs. [0] Bezos parents invested 250k to fund Amazon. [1] Upper middle class is generational wealth already if it passes a generation. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/05/how-bill-gates-mother-influe... [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/02/how-jeff-bezos-got-his-paren...

Yeah those parents are all upper middle class. None of them are at all comparable to the owners of a company like VW, Tesla, or Amazon.

And none of them were "heirs who own the majority of stock" nor support your claim that "just because the companies change doesn't mean the owners do".

Edit to reply: You don't need to tell me about the social mobility of people living in poverty. I was born into a family of construction workers, and escaped poverty by learning to program. I know from experience that new businesses create opportunities to escape poverty, even if that isn't measured or sufficiently weighted by the index you cited.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#95

Post by elicash »

timecube wrote: post #84
bryanlarsen wrote: post #43

Tesla should take the initiative and bring in a co-operative German-style union or they are going to get stuck with an antagonistic UAW or similar.

This is illegal under US law.

Company unions aren't permitted. But there's an element of this approach in the most recent approaches to undermining unions, where companies create groups for worker voices including ESG and DEI initiatives. I'm not saying companies doing this is necessarily bad, just being descriptive about that at least part of the motivation is to undermine union organizing, as even corporate lobbying groups describe it:

https://theintercept.com/2022/06/07/union-busting-tactics-di... https://www.levernews.com/fear-and-loathing-among-the-union-...

As far as whatever is done in Germany, I can't speak to that since it's outside my area of knowledge.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#96

Post by trieste92 »

realslimjd wrote: post #73
elif wrote: post #2

As someone who has only worked in "right to work" states, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek "job security" through a 3rd party agency rather than by individual performance and developing personal relationships. Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Am I just Stockholm Syndromed?

Unions can and do exist in right to work states. The point of a union is not job security. It's about giving workers collective power they may not otherwise have. Historically unions have been painted as extremely antagonistic towards companies in the United States, but there's no reason that has to be true. A well-run union recognizes that their survival is tied to the company's survival, and as long as both sides e…

> Usually that means something like getting a PIP and six weeks to improve performance. Is that such an unreasonable ask?

Isn't this what parent took issue with? If you can't fire the underperformers, where's the incentive to get shit done?

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#97

Post by dexterdog »

leereeves wrote: post #76
malermeister wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And most of them are also started by heirs of generational wealth. Just because the companies change doesn't mean the owners do.

Who specifically are you thinking of? Every founder I can think of was born in the middle or upper middle class.

He's not talking about the founders. He's talking about the funders.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#98

Post by wil421 »

zzzeek wrote: post #78
elif wrote: post #2

As someone who has only worked in "right to work" states, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek "job security" through a 3rd party agency rather than by individual performance and developing personal relationships. Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Am I just Stockholm Syndromed?

this take is kind of breathtaking? There's an entire history of workers unions in the US and around the world, famous spurring events like the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory disaster, surely you aren't just waving the entire subject off as "absurd", thinking that whole factories of garment workers for example would have success via "individual performance" ? like they'd have fire exits just for the better performing wor…

They are comparing an office job to a back breaking trade (plumbing, metal working, electrician) or manufacturing job. Factory jobs have lots of people doing the same reparative job, individual performance only goes so far.

Would the bosses really care if you are the fastest chicken skinner or bolt screwer?

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#99

Post by GAN_Game »

malermeister wrote: post #86
leereeves wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who specifically are you thinking of? Every founder I can think of was born in the middle or upper middle class.

Elon Musk's dad was a South African millionaire. Bill Gates' mom was on the board of directors of a bank and gave him an intro to IBM execs. [0] Bezos parents invested 250k to fund Amazon. [1] Upper middle class is generational wealth already if it passes a generation. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/05/how-bill-gates-mother-influe... [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/02/how-jeff-bezos-got-his-paren...

Zuckerberg went to Phillips Exeter, a high school which costs at least $47,000 a year.

Zuckerberg bought Instagram from Kevin Systrom who went to Middlesex high school, which costs at least $55,000 a year.

At this point it becomes a parlor game of who is rich, and who is "upper middle class", which apparently means spending $55,000+ a year on your kid's high school.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#100

Post by realslimjd »

kingstoned wrote: post #91
realslimjd wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions can and do exist in right to work states. The point of a union is not job security. It's about giving workers collective power they may not otherwise have. Historically unions have been painted as extremely antagonistic towards companies in the United States, but there's no reason that has to be true. A well-run union recognizes that their survival is tied to the company's survival, and as long as both sides e…

The point of a union is not job security. It's about giving workers collective power they may not otherwise have. What would people do with this theoretical collective power? Probably job security combined with restrictions on work. Do as little as you can while being guaranteed a paycheck. What people want is protection from being fired for no reason. How can people be fired for no reason? There is always a reason,…

I feel like you missed my point that it is not in a union's interest to protect low-performing workers. A union cannot survive without jobs, and union members are just as frustrated as anyone else when someone is not pulling their weight.

To your point about labor restrictions, unions gave us two day weekends and forty hour weeks. Modern labor practices are almost entirely defined by things unions fought for and standardized. The restrictions we have on work now didn't nebulously appear from the goodwill of employers.

People are absolutely fired for no reason all the time. Sometimes their boss is having a bad day. Maybe their manager is prejudiced against people wearing green shirts. Sometimes people are (illegally) fired for joining a union. People are not always rational, and that doesn't change between their work and personal lives.

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