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Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

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Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#71

Post by mattkevan »

hotpotamus wrote: post #4
elif wrote: post #2

As someone who has only worked in "right to work" states, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek "job security" through a 3rd party agency rather than by individual performance and developing personal relationships. Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Am I just Stockholm Syndromed?

As someone who has never needed "the police" to provide physical security, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek to form governments to "provide security" rather than through individual enforcement of the law through firearm ownership.

As someone who has never needed "the fire brigade" to extinguish a fire in my house, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek to form governments to "provide fire services" rather than through individual application of water through bucket ownership.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#72

Post by RivieraKid »

elif wrote: post #2

As someone who has only worked in "right to work" states, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek "job security" through a 3rd party agency rather than by individual performance and developing personal relationships. Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Am I just Stockholm Syndromed?

The theoretical reasoning behind unions is that they counteract the market power of companies over employees.

If this market power assymetry doesn't exist (for example software engineers in San Francisco), unions are not beneficial to the society but at least slightly beneficial to the average union member assuming the union is making good decisions. Because more market power is always better than less market power. It's always advantageous to be a monopoly.

If you're a highly productive employee, the company doesn't have market over you, you can easily find another job. But this may be different for an average employee.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#73

Post by realslimjd »

elif wrote: post #2

As someone who has only worked in "right to work" states, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek "job security" through a 3rd party agency rather than by individual performance and developing personal relationships. Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Am I just Stockholm Syndromed?

Unions can and do exist in right to work states.

The point of a union is not job security. It's about giving workers collective power they may not otherwise have. Historically unions have been painted as extremely antagonistic towards companies in the United States, but there's no reason that has to be true.

A well-run union recognizes that their survival is tied to the company's survival, and as long as both sides engage in good faith, they should reach an agreement that's mutually beneficial. To your point about job security, no one I know in unions wants to keep all employees no matter what. What people want is protection from being fired for no reason. Usually that means something like getting a PIP and six weeks to improve performance. Is that such an unreasonable ask? That way the employee has a chance to keep their job, and the company can potentially avoid the expense of hiring and training a new employee.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#74

Post by malermeister »

leereeves wrote: post #57
hef19898 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those heirs are the richest people in Europe, owning everything from VW and Porsche to BMW and a bunch of other household names. And those few percent are coming off from quite huge figures...

Yeah, the lack of new businesses is a big problem in Europe. Regulations and taxation kill them or drive them out of Europe. But I was speaking from a US perspective (since I'm from the US and this story is about the US), and our biggest, most profitable businesses are mostly under fifty years old, not over.

And most of them are also started by heirs of generational wealth.

Just because the companies change doesn't mean the owners do.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#75

Post by stefan_ »

alfor wrote: post #23

I wouldn’t be surprised that UAW be behind that. It’s a very powerful organisation having a lot of political power. They see Tesla as a threat to their system as Tesla is the only in the US not part of it and they are doing better than all the other car companies. I know someone who saved companies from bankruptcy, usually heavy industries. When he get hired he install security cameras and other measures and after a…

You are talking about Tesla, who will give you a 40h contract, then expect you to work for 60h with no extra pay. Who is the bigger thief?

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#76

Post by leereeves »

malermeister wrote: post #74
leereeves wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the lack of new businesses is a big problem in Europe. Regulations and taxation kill them or drive them out of Europe. But I was speaking from a US perspective (since I'm from the US and this story is about the US), and our biggest, most profitable businesses are mostly under fifty years old, not over.

And most of them are also started by heirs of generational wealth. Just because the companies change doesn't mean the owners do.

Who specifically are you thinking of? Every founder I can think of was born in the middle or upper middle class.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#77

Post by pydry »

abduhl wrote: post #29
quadrifoliate wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're Stockholm Syndromed, but I definitely think you're lacking in empathy. Think about it this way -- do you think you have been always productive and reliable, 100% of the time? If not (let's say, 5% of the time you weren't), then you were the the unproductive or unreliable coworker, possibly due to factors in your life that you could not control. The idea of a union is that it insulates you from be…

>> The idea of a union is that it insulates you from being instantly punished for factors you might not be able to control a little better than the market is doing right now (look for news about new parents who were part of the layoffs recently). Since when has this been the idea of the union? Recall that nearly all union rules are set by seniority, not personal factors like having a bad day or having a child.

Pick a better objective metric that correlates well with job performance that can't be twisted by management to promote the ass kissers and snitches.

Unions will be delighted to adopt it.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#78

Post by zzzeek »

elif wrote: post #2

As someone who has only worked in "right to work" states, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek "job security" through a 3rd party agency rather than by individual performance and developing personal relationships. Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Am I just Stockholm Syndromed?

this take is kind of breathtaking? There's an entire history of workers unions in the US and around the world, famous spurring events like the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory disaster, surely you aren't just waving the entire subject off as "absurd", thinking that whole factories of garment workers for example would have success via "individual performance" ? like they'd have fire exits just for the better performing workers? I can't even get my head around this take.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#79

Post by PeterisP »

elif wrote: post #2

As someone who has only worked in "right to work" states, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek "job security" through a 3rd party agency rather than by individual performance and developing personal relationships. Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Am I just Stockholm Syndromed?

A decent union is mostly about job conditions, not job security - collective bargaining prevents a "race to the bottom" where abusive conditions creep in due to there always being some people who'll do the job anyway. A good example is the Screen Actors Guild which imposes all kinds of minimum conditions, for example, due to which all kinds of safety issues in filming are handled quite decently (even if stuff does still happen), despite the fact that many desperate wannabe actors would easily sign a contract where they agree to whatever conditions the company imposes.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#80

Post by westpfelia »

leereeves wrote: post #57
hef19898 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those heirs are the richest people in Europe, owning everything from VW and Porsche to BMW and a bunch of other household names. And those few percent are coming off from quite huge figures...

Yeah, the lack of new businesses is a big problem in Europe. Regulations and taxation kill them or drive them out of Europe. But I was speaking from a US perspective (since I'm from the US and this story is about the US), and our biggest, most profitable businesses are mostly under fifty years old, not over.

OH 1000000% I mean can you even name a single business that has started in Berlin in the last 25 years? You cant. Because not a single business has started. Taxes have killed all brand new business ideas in the German tech start up scene.
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