I tried Clojure, but when i look for a good ORM, what i see is a paid library.
If you really want to melt your brain (in a GOOD way) look at XTDB it's a datalog-query-based DB. Like dataomic but free.
Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
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Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#22I love Clojure the language but I’ve never seen a more fragmented ecosystem. There seems to be a pattern in the language of “a problem emerges > a community solution gains traction > Cognitect develops their own solution but its weird and undocumented”, like deps.edn over leiningen, spec over malli, pedestal over ring, etc. Many prominent clojurists recommend deps.edn over leiningen and socket repl over nrepl, but I’…
> deps.edn Deps is well documented. The issue I personally found is that I needed to look at a bunch of OS project's deps.edn to see how people commonly structure things. Other than that it is a simple tool. > socket repl over nrepl I personally use Calva (VSCode) which just starts an nrepl based on deps.edn. When writing babashka scripts I start the repl manually and connect to it. Very pleasant experience so far. >…
Deps may be well documented, but lots of introductory material seems to use lein. Having two systems is more confusing.
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#23I tried Clojure, but when i look for a good ORM, what i see is a paid library.
In Clojure ORMs aren't really that popular considering most Clojurists just use the built in datatypes (e.g. maps) to represent data. There are no classes as such (unless you use Java interop). If you need a query builder the honeysql library is really nice.
Lol yup ! "It's Maps All The Way Down"
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#24To toot my own horn: The oldest still-active compiler-based language on the Java platform, besides Java, is as far as I know Kawa (https://gnu.org/software/kawa). It started Summer 1996, and is still actively maintained. (Not as active as it used to be, to be true.) Like Clojure, it is a Scheme-like language, but (unlike Clojure) it is very compatible with "regular" Scheme (R7RS), though of couurse with lots of extensions. With a little bit of care (including optional type-specifiers), it is easy to write code that is as fast as Java code.
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#25While I like Clojure as a language - I have never seen a language that engendered such hatred in PMs, EMs, sales, etc. I don't know that it survives long term (in industry, it'll survive for a long time as a hobby language.)
I like Clojure, but unfortunately for web development, there isn't a great stack and for data science/ML/AI (which is a great fit for clojure), python dominates the market. What is the niche for Clojure, or why should keep using it in 2023? P.S: I like it a lot, but either I do golang or ror for web dev, or python/pytorch for data sciences/AI stuff, C# for game development. I don't think i can get more productive wit…
Check Clerk (https://clerk.vision/) for the boundaries between data science / data viz / moldable programming
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#26I love Clojure the language but I’ve never seen a more fragmented ecosystem. There seems to be a pattern in the language of “a problem emerges > a community solution gains traction > Cognitect develops their own solution but its weird and undocumented”, like deps.edn over leiningen, spec over malli, pedestal over ring, etc. Many prominent clojurists recommend deps.edn over leiningen and socket repl over nrepl, but I’…
I think your pattern is right except for "its weird and undocumented" - I have found the maintainers are superb at docs -
e.g. deps.edn -
there is a "Guide" https://clojure.org/guides/deps_and_cli
there is a "Getting Started" https://clojure.org/guides/getting_started (it's branded as an overall Clojure getting started but the core of deps is just the clj/clojure command line tool you would use to install clojure)
there is a deep "Reference" with a "Rationale" https://clojure.org/reference/deps_and_cli
spec
Spec Guide - https://clojure.org/guides/spec
Spec Rationale https://clojure.org/about/spec
Spec API reference https://clojure.github.io/spec.alpha/
Spec resources (brief) https://clojure.org/community/resources#spec
(Rich Hickey also gave a couple of spec talks that are on YouTube)
Also, for my money, deps.edn is way more composable than lein, does not feel weird to me at all. Ditto for spec vs prismatic schema which preceded it. I think the latter case is one where people were more miffed that the official solution displaced a community beloved tool, but to me it genuinely seems really well thought through. There are some flaws discussed in the Rich Hickey talk "Maybe Not" which led to an experimental (still beta) spec2 but spec1 I still find miles ahead of what's available for the languages I've worked with.
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#27I tried Clojure, but when i look for a good ORM, what i see is a paid library.
You don't want an Object Relational Mapping library in a language that discourages object orientation.
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#28I tried getting into Clojure (I have an undergrad Lisp background). I just couldn't become productive, and the tooling seems fragmented. Been moving many of my workloads from Go to Rust.
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is actually a great choice for unopinionated server-side web development. Frontend development is simply awesome in ClojureScript. Give me Reagent + Shadow CLJS over plain React (or React Native) any day.
For you and anyone else with experience, is that the most common/battle-tested cljs stack? What about servers-side, any equivalent Django or FastAPI?
If you want a complete, integrated "stack" that stitches some of the most common libraries together in a uniform structure you might have a look at kit:
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#30I love Clojure the language but I’ve never seen a more fragmented ecosystem. There seems to be a pattern in the language of “a problem emerges > a community solution gains traction > Cognitect develops their own solution but its weird and undocumented”, like deps.edn over leiningen, spec over malli, pedestal over ring, etc. Many prominent clojurists recommend deps.edn over leiningen and socket repl over nrepl, but I’…
> deps.edn Deps is well documented. The issue I personally found is that I needed to look at a bunch of OS project's deps.edn to see how people commonly structure things. Other than that it is a simple tool. > socket repl over nrepl I personally use Calva (VSCode) which just starts an nrepl based on deps.edn. When writing babashka scripts I start the repl manually and connect to it. Very pleasant experience so far. >…
> Deps is well documented.
> The issue I personally found is that I needed to look at a bunch of OS project's deps.edn to see how people commonly structure things. Other than that it is a simple tool.
This seems like a contradiction, because if it was well documented you wouldn’t need to look at other people’s configs to see how to use it.
My experience with deps.edn is that every time I start a project and make a deps.edn file, I immediately draw a blank and don’t know how to structure it, so I open ones from other projects to start lifting stuff out of them.
I still don’t know how to reliably configure a project to use nrepl or socket repl without just using an editor plugin. I definitely have no idea how to use those in conjunction with a tool like reveal.
To me, none of that is simple. Simple would be like Emacs’ use-package. With that I know how to add dependencies, specify keybinds, and do initialization and configuration off the top of my head knowing only the name of a package I want to use. And it has really nice documentation with tons of examples.