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Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

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Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#131
My brother lives less than 15 miles downwind from the site of the disaster. He's young, just graduated from trade school, found a welding job in the area and brought his wife and one year-old daughter. In 50 years I'm sure we'll consider this whole region a superfund site and hand out pennies to the people whose lives were completely upended as a result.

It's a travesty how this has been handled. Massively rich corporations deflecting blame, lying to the public, and trying to cover up their own malfeasance in the pursuit of relentless greed. Profits over people, as usual.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make these companies government owned and operate them like the post office.

Not sure if adding sovereign immunity to the situation would help. Managers take shortcuts to get ahead in a lot of situations; consider, for instance, Chernobyl. It’s one of the reasons I think the “prioritizing profits” narrative rings hollow. Any profits they would have preserved by not-stopping for the first hotbox detector? Already burned by the costs of the closure and the response so far. If anything, chasing…

> It’s one of the reasons I think the “prioritizing profits” narrative rings hollow. Any profits they would have preserved by not-stopping for the first hotbox detector? Already burned by the costs of the closure and the response so far. If anything, chasing profits better would have prevented this.

It's not about this incident, it's about all the other times they did the same thing and got away with it. Every train that didn't stop in a similar situation and didn't cause a major problem was a win to the company. Whatever stopping a train costs, they saved that amount every single time they didn't do it, and if they did this regularly that number probably adds up.

There's a concept in risk management called the swiss cheese model[1] where you think of your layers of protection like a stack of swiss cheese slices. Every individual layer has its holes, but as you stack them up the number of paths through the whole stack gets smaller and smaller. In a sufficiently protected system, causing a major problem should require multiple layers to fail or be bypassed.

The trick of course is that this also generally means that when commercial pressure and/or individual laziness leads to one or more of the layers being bypassed it won't usually cause an immediate problem because other layers are still covering most of the holes, but the safety margin might now be a single layer instead of three so one more failure can cause a catastrophe.

Layers of protection cost money so it's not exactly rocket surgery to understand why those focused on profits, especially those who are primarily interested in short term profits, constantly apply pressure to bypass or shortcut those layers as much as people feel they can get away with.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#134

Here's something for your daily dose of "that's strange:" In 2021 residents of East Palestine, Ohio were extras in filming a train derailment scene for the movie "White Noise"(2022). "Ratner, 37, is in a traffic jam scene, sitting in a line of cars trying to evacuate after a freight train collided with a tanker truck, triggering an explosion that fills the air with dangerous toxins." https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/11/he…

Wow. A disaster scene being filmed for a big-budget movie, and when the same disaster actually happens in the same place, it's largely overlooked - that's exactly the kind of thing that would happen in the book.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it's state controlled and an accident happens and there is a govt investigation, do you think it'll be more stern than one on a private company? Do you think enforcement of rules is stricter when enforced in house? At least it's easier to hold public officials accountable - you can get rid of them by voting - than to hold companies accountable.

>”At least it's easier to hold public officials accountable - you can get rid of them by voting - than to hold companies accountable.” I disagree because most of the public officials who would be accountable are appointed to these positions, not directly elected. The representatives we elect - mayor, house representative, senator, etc. - all have a good degree of distance from direct accountability. Plus, I feel like…

Those are solvable problems if we care to fix them. In what way can we fix corporate decision making when we have no say in how they operate except through the same government you're already saying we can't hold accountable?

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#136
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was young, I assumed the 401k had been around forever. But it was introduced in 1978! We're nearing the end of the 50-year period that the guys who invented it would really need to get staggeringly rich off of the concept, and now that they're getting ready to die everyone's overreliance on the system they set up is causing total gridlock in American life. You can't do ANYTHING that threatens the stock market.…

What’s the alternative? Pensions? If your retirement is dependent on a pension, and the pension goes belly up, then you’re left with a fraction of what you planned for (since PGBC doesn’t cover it all)

Ultimately retirement always has the same problem: a retired person wants to consume something today without producing anything today. They can't genuinely save it up: if they packed meat in their 20s and wrote code in their 40s, the meat isn't going to be any good and the code will be deprecated in their 80s. The theory of retirement is that there is some surplus of work being produced which can be redirected to people who are not working. A pension plan or a retirement plan or personal savings effectively causes some of your income to be unspendable today, making it today's surplus for today's retirees (even if it causes the value of a database record in your name to increase). But when you are retired, it doesn't matter if that previous surplus was achieved through a pension plan or a retirement fund or personal savings or the kindness of their children: if there is no surplus today, then you can't have it today. When it happens, perhaps it will look like a bank run or a currency collapse or a crash in the stock market. But those are just the economy's way of telling you your society is already bankrupt; they don't necessarily cause the bankruptcy in the first place.

So what is the alternative? Is there one? If you want to eat a steak, either you slaughter the cow yourself, or someone else makes more than they need and chooses to sell it to you. The way a retirement is funded might change whether someone with more than they need choose to sell it to you, but it isn't going to make steaks exist.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit (and now HN) is the only source that shows this on the front page - I wouldn't have heard about it otherwise. Corporate news outlets have kept it from the front page.

There is a relevant article on APNews, and ~~it's~~ it was on their front page. https://apnews.com/ https://imgur.com/a/Li9oDSO An earlier article from APNews was submitted, but was likely missed due to timing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34770772 Front Page Link (2023-02-13): https://apnews.com/article/evacuations-west-virginia-pennsyl... Reddit Link (2023-02-08): https://apnews.com/article/rail-accidents-e…

No it's not on AP frontpage, posting merely 30 minutes after your post.

https://imgur.com/a/BeQuARZ

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#138

> Residents are concerned about long-term effects of low-grade exposure. > “There’s all that smoke and all those chemicals in there,” said Mason Shields, who lives in East Palestine and visited an aid center outside the evacuation zone. “I’m wondering if it’s even going to be safe for people to return within the next week or month or however long.” Generally speaking, I read the news because I want to learn facts abo…

It's an affected resident, not a random person, so it's quite relevant to the news at hand.

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#139
post #71

This seems like it should be a bigger story.

It should, but UFO UFO UFO! I've lost faith in intelligence of HN users after they downvoted into oblivion anyone sceptical about COVID "vaccines" and pushed official safe and effective propaganda. It's same with this baloon smokescreen, notice how nobody talks about Nord Stream 2 sabotage by US, which was like 1 day affair, while they entertrain us with this UFO nonsense for days already.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34760483

Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern

#140

I see all the staunch supporters of deregulation across the board that normally come out of the woodwork on HN are strangely absent.

Well you know how they always say "the market will regulate itself"? The issue they like to forget is that you or a family member may be part of the first 346 dead from the Boeing Max disaster or you live in Palestine, Ohio before the market regulates itself.

I mean you could argue that part of this was exactly the result of government intervention is one of the strikes that railway workers were working for was better safety rules and more time off and then Congress forced the strike to end.
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