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Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

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Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#111

Post by lamontcg »

williamcotton wrote: post #65
thundergolfer wrote: post #47

This thread is already full of people throwing in their cheap takes by reading the headline or not even that. Listen to his answers. He's not making controversial claims, excepting the one that LLMs teach us nothing about language. He says: - ChatGPT makes it easier to cheat. This is obviously true. - ChatGPT is a method of avoiding learning. In the context of the interview he's referring to its use not as an informa…

That ChatGPT is good at truthfully answering one kind of prompt (analytic, where the facts are contained in the prompt, so the task is translation) and bad at truthfully answering another kind of prompt (synthetic, where the facts are not contained in the prompt, so the task is synthesis), tells me something about the nature of language. It turns out that setting up solutions to math problems is mainly a language tra…

I've asked ChatGPT to take the derivative of an expression and the one it gave back to me was off by a minus sign. I tried to get it to calculate the expression for the height of a rocket flying vertically in constant gravity and the answer it gave me was just the rocket equation with h = instead of v = and I then got into a curious discussion with it about dimensional analysis where it just gaslit the crap out of me. If you think it is good at "analytic" tasks you haven't challenged it much.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#112

Post by kledru »

thundergolfer wrote: post #47

This thread is already full of people throwing in their cheap takes by reading the headline or not even that. Listen to his answers. He's not making controversial claims, excepting the one that LLMs teach us nothing about language. He says: - ChatGPT makes it easier to cheat. This is obviously true. - ChatGPT is a method of avoiding learning. In the context of the interview he's referring to its use not as an informa…

This seems mostly right. But ChatGPT also can make it a lot easier to learn if one wants to learn. But I think that you need to be able to critically evaluate it's output for that. And to formulate your ideas on some level. If one never obtains those skills, perhaps learning with chatGPT won't be of much use.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#113

Post by dorchadas »

lordnacho wrote: post #84
wpietri wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after your primary school years, you get a calculator to work out the arithmetic Do we? I do a lot of mental arithmetic as a software developer. When I was an exchange student my host-dad was an engineer and he was incredibly good at it. As he was thinking through a problem he'd do all sorts of ballpark math to get a feel for things. Eventually, yes, the numbers would all get crunched properly. But even then he'd a…

> A person who uses a calculator for everything starting from a young age just doesn't develop that skill. But is that a reasonable fear? It's actually quite hard to use a tool without understanding it, so you won't get a lot of people reliant on calculators who don't understand calculation. I've certainly never met someone for whom it was a problem. About using tools you don't understand, this is easy to try. Get so…

I taught high school math, there's many who rely on calculators for even the most basic calculations because they can't do them and have no concept of what it means to, say, multiply two numbers or how to even go about doing it.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#114

Post by specialist »

thundergolfer wrote: post #73
specialist wrote: post #20

ChatGPT's ability to mass produce content just demonstrates the banality of most content. Ditto DALL-E et al. It reminds me of Dadaism. With the algorithms are the critics, vs the artists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada -- I also agree with other critical hot takes, like Ted Chiang's analogy "ChatGPT is jpeg style compression for text". A less accusatory framing than Chomsky's plagiarism thesis, more or less. --…

> Did adoption of calculators lead to less learning of arithmetic. There's discussion of this in the book The Shallows , which is a book that gives a good overview of the relationship between technology that augment our intellect and contemporary society. The gist is that calculators where a boon to mathematical education, because they freed up students to spend more time working through the challenging abstract aspe…

I'm remiss in having not yet read (the highly recommended) The Shallows. Thanks. I'd be elated to have my hunches about this proven wrong.

> the actual production of the typed word

FWIW, this is my hang up. I'm quite comfortable typing. And yet I still write many things out manually. It just feels different. And I don't know why.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#115

Post by [deleted] »

Version467 wrote: post #75
Spooky23 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did adoption of calculators lead to less learning of arithmetic. Certainly. Was that a bad thing? I honestly don't know. IMO it was bad for individuals, good for society. People are innumerate and that is exploited by people selling products and services.

I don't understand how you get from here: > People are innumerate and that is exploited by people selling products and services. to here: > good for society Did I misunderstand your argument?

[deleted]

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#116

Post by elforce002 »

kledru wrote: post #112
thundergolfer wrote: post #47

This thread is already full of people throwing in their cheap takes by reading the headline or not even that. Listen to his answers. He's not making controversial claims, excepting the one that LLMs teach us nothing about language. He says: - ChatGPT makes it easier to cheat. This is obviously true. - ChatGPT is a method of avoiding learning. In the context of the interview he's referring to its use not as an informa…

This seems mostly right. But ChatGPT also can make it a lot easier to learn if one wants to learn. But I think that you need to be able to critically evaluate it's output for that. And to formulate your ideas on some level. If one never obtains those skills, perhaps learning with chatGPT won't be of much use.

I beg to differ. You can try to learn, sure, but it's tricky, to say the least. You learn from people with years of XP in the subject, many references, among other things. The knowledge you gain from them is vetted by pretty much the entire scientific community.

If you're not an expert in any field, chatGPT can give you any answer and you'll take it as good and valid. That's a dangerous precedent there.

And just in case you said: "you can double check what chatGPT is throwing at me", well, that's wishful thinking. People hardly go the extra mile, less of all, when studying is involved. It's difficult to just concentrate in one subject, let alone the whole curriculum, and that's with guidance. What type of guidance does chatGPT offer? How are you going to measure the student? If he/she fails, what are the options?

There are lots of questions to be answered before we incorporate chatGPT the the current education system.

I'm not saying we couldn't do it, I'm just saying that while tech is there to help us, this time around is dangerous because it can do more harm than good, and could, in fact, set humanity back if mishandled.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#117

Post by ausbah »

elforce002 wrote: post #116
kledru wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems mostly right. But ChatGPT also can make it a lot easier to learn if one wants to learn. But I think that you need to be able to critically evaluate it's output for that. And to formulate your ideas on some level. If one never obtains those skills, perhaps learning with chatGPT won't be of much use.

I beg to differ. You can try to learn, sure, but it's tricky, to say the least. You learn from people with years of XP in the subject, many references, among other things. The knowledge you gain from them is vetted by pretty much the entire scientific community. If you're not an expert in any field, chatGPT can give you any answer and you'll take it as good and valid. That's a dangerous precedent there. And just in c…

I think the value that chatgpt could (emphasis on could) provide as a learning tool is the same value that a repl provides to coding, instant feedback in a playground environment. I think it would be immensely useful or anyone learning anything to be able to say "I don't stand specific thing based on prior conversation please elaborate", or "give me a new example of specific thing" or "explain my why my thought process about X thing is wrong". would really boost engagement with learning a think by lowering the barrier to getting stuck on something, if all the BSing and incorrect info it has could be worked out

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#118

Post by williamcotton »

lamontcg wrote: post #111
williamcotton wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That ChatGPT is good at truthfully answering one kind of prompt (analytic, where the facts are contained in the prompt, so the task is translation) and bad at truthfully answering another kind of prompt (synthetic, where the facts are not contained in the prompt, so the task is synthesis), tells me something about the nature of language. It turns out that setting up solutions to math problems is mainly a language tra…

I've asked ChatGPT to take the derivative of an expression and the one it gave back to me was off by a minus sign. I tried to get it to calculate the expression for the height of a rocket flying vertically in constant gravity and the answer it gave me was just the rocket equation with h = instead of v = and I then got into a curious discussion with it about dimensional analysis where it just gaslit the crap out of me…

And I’ve applied these principles of analytic augmentation to make the results of otherwise synthetic prompts more reliably truthful and in a testable and reproducible manner.

You seem to be thrashing around wildly while using these tools and I can’t imagine why anyone would be interested in whatever conclusions result from such lack of methodology.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#119

Post by BulgarianIdiot »

LeanderK wrote: post #100
BulgarianIdiot wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you don’t need it in life because you don’t do it, but it’s an important basic skill. Explain this belief.

because it's not about the essay but the skills you need to write an essay. Many topics in school are not strictly needed, but important, either for your intellectual maturity or because they are used in other contexts.

What skills.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#120

Post by bumby »

sitkack wrote: post #98
wpietri wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those aren't decades-old "prognostications". They are things that happened. Could it be different this time? Maybe! But if you want to say that it will , then you have to make the argument. Or maybe you can get ChatGPT to do it for you?

Have you tried coding with ChatGPT? It works now. You can use it now to architect a system AND produce working code.

I have not, but others have detailed examples where it produces rubbish. Certainly not the kind of risk to take with safety critical systems like what an astronaut may rely on.
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