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Another Russian spacecraft at ISS has a coolant leak

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Re: Another Russian spacecraft at ISS has a coolant leak

#81

Post by bigdict »

InTheArena wrote: post #67
vbezhenar wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

West stoles Russia money and now Russia is untrustworthy. Right. No. You broke your own "private property is holy right" dogma. Russia is not breaking its obligations. It even pays Ukraine for gas transfer right now, an act which many Russian people find weird and questionable.

Don’t want to be under sanctions? Don’t invade other countries murder innocents, kill babies. Want to be trusted? Follow the treaties you signed. Don’t want to be accused of breaking g your obligations? Read the UN charter.

Are you talking about the US?

Re: Another Russian spacecraft at ISS has a coolant leak

#82

Post by bandyaboot »

wheelerof4te wrote: post #78
ArnoVW wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No longer supplying means that they get geopolitical flack for 'using hydrocarbons as a weapon'. And will get dragged before the courts for not honoring their long term contracts. So blowing the pipeline up is the better alternative.

A famous journalist, American no less, does not agree with you. Also, as soon as that pipeline got blown up, EU got forced to take much more expensive American liquid gas. It's not hard to believe in and it makes 100x more sense than Putin blowing it up for funzies.

It’s not even just a little difficult for you to believe that the US would risk totally destroying its standing within NATO in order to do something that Russia was already doing on their own accord?

Re: Another Russian spacecraft at ISS has a coolant leak

#83

Post by justinator »

openplatypus wrote: post #3

Are we at the point we should start suspecting sabotage? Or is this just usual Russian incompetence? This maybe news cycle bias, but since the Ukraine war, and threat of Russian pulling out of ISS program, these malfunctions have been more visible. Is anyone tracking these and similar incidents publicly?

I think resources in general are getting a little hard to find in Russia, especially for things like space ships. Most likely those resources are being diverted into making missiles, either officially, or through black market channels. Russia will fight until Moscow falls, it not a matter of if a Soyuz or two doesn't come home.

Re: Another Russian spacecraft at ISS has a coolant leak

#84

Post by bandyaboot »

willcipriano wrote: post #77
bandyaboot wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia had zero logical reasons to blow it up. I don’t have any trouble believing that Putin’s devotion to rational decision making is less than complete at this point—particularly when it comes to doling out retribution to the west. The idea that the US would risk making itself a pariah amongst its NATO allies, particularly right now does not seem believable to me.

It's easier to call your enemies insane than to admit you don't understand their motivation.

Humans routinely prioritize retribution over rationality.

Re: Another Russian spacecraft at ISS has a coolant leak

#85

Post by philwelch »

nordsieck wrote: post #6
openplatypus wrote: post #3

Are we at the point we should start suspecting sabotage? Or is this just usual Russian incompetence? This maybe news cycle bias, but since the Ukraine war, and threat of Russian pulling out of ISS program, these malfunctions have been more visible. Is anyone tracking these and similar incidents publicly?

> Are we at the point we should start suspecting sabotage? What possible reason would the Russians have to sabotage their own side of their won space craft? The only real outcomes would be either having to launch an additional spacecraft to get their people back or suffering the indignity of the US bringing their people back on a US vehicle. If they don't want to be there, it'd be pretty easy to cite something about…

“The Russians”? No. “Some guy in Russia?” Lots of reasons why some guy in Russia might be mad and try and sabotage a Russian spacecraft.

OTOH, Russia also has a sordid history of unsubstantiated accusations of sabotage to cover up for their own incompetence.

Re: Another Russian spacecraft at ISS has a coolant leak

#86

Post by ufmace »

wongarsu wrote: post #26
nordsieck wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, sabotage could also have been done by the other side, to point out the russian incompetence and drive them out even earlier, but the risk/reward does not make this likely. 1. NASA wants Russia to maintain a presence on the ISS. Many of the necessary functions for operating the ISS are spread across both the US (international) and Russian sides. If the Russians left, that would dramatically complicate operatio…

NASA isn't in the business of sabotaging, that would be the CIA. That means that 1. NASA cares about keeping the ISS alive, the CIA might have other priorities and care more about how this humiliates Russia much more than NASA 2. I would be more surprised if there were no CIA agents in the manufacturing pipeline of Soyuz spacecraft, never mind the launch site. Just strategically weaken some parts so they fail in orbi…

Seems like a pretty wacky thing to do IMO.

Maybe the CIA does have some operatives in the Russian aerospace industry. But why would any such operatives risk exposing themselves by sabotaging hardware going to the ISS? Just for a rather contrived plan to make the Russians look incompetent while putting American astronauts at risk too? Surely the CIA can come up with better ways to make the Russians look incompetent without putting carefully established agents at risk. Or they can just do nothing, since the Russians seem to have little trouble displaying ineptitude without any assistance.

Re: Another Russian spacecraft at ISS has a coolant leak

#87

Post by philwelch »

wheelerof4te wrote: post #64
bandyaboot wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if you guys are being deliberately obtuse with stuff or what, but the Nordstream pipeline can deliver gas to Germany—that’s it. If circumstances change such that Russia no longer wants to deliver gas to Germany, the pipeline has no value to them. It doesn’t matter that it’s theirs. It’s not like they can use it for something else.

Russia could just stop the flow of gas without blowing the pipeline up. They had Zero reasons to blow it up and very good reasons to keep it alive if and when the Germans wanted that gas again. The only beneficiary of the pipeline going bust are the USA.

> The only beneficiary of the pipeline going bust are the USA.

Ukraine and Norway are also beneficiaries. Ukraine because it reduces the risk of Germany getting squishy about supporting them and Norway because they’ve cornered the European natural gas market.

Re: Another Russian spacecraft at ISS has a coolant leak

#88

Post by dilyevsky »

wheelerof4te wrote: post #78
ArnoVW wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No longer supplying means that they get geopolitical flack for 'using hydrocarbons as a weapon'. And will get dragged before the courts for not honoring their long term contracts. So blowing the pipeline up is the better alternative.

A famous journalist, American no less, does not agree with you. Also, as soon as that pipeline got blown up, EU got forced to take much more expensive American liquid gas. It's not hard to believe in and it makes 100x more sense than Putin blowing it up for funzies.

> A famous journalist, American no less, does not agree with you

A famous journalist who believed obl was imprisoned by pakistan in 2006 and the assassination was staged, siria didnt use chemical weapons, and skripals weren’t poisoned by novichok. You see the pattern here?

Re: Another Russian spacecraft at ISS has a coolant leak

#89

Post by bandyaboot »

bigdict wrote: post #76
bandyaboot wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia had already been increasingly cutting gas supplies to Europe before the Nordstream pipeline was sabatoged. They weren’t just threatening.

If that's true, why blow up your own infrastructure when you can just cut the supply?

First, there’s no “if”, it’s a fact that can be easily verified. Second, I don’t pretend to know for a fact it was Russia. One of several reasons that I think it’s most likely is that Russia is the country involved here where one man’s irrational decisions would turn into action with virtually no checks.

Re: Another Russian spacecraft at ISS has a coolant leak

#90

Post by ajsnigrutin »

bandyaboot wrote: post #42
latchkey wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What possible reason would the Russians have to sabotage their own side of their won space craft? Some people believe the Nord pipeline blowup was self-sabotage. Update: I did not say I believe this myself. I'm just using this as a counter argument to say that the reasons might not be obvious at first glance and people tend to believe all sorts of things.

I don’t know if you guys are being deliberately obtuse with stuff or what, but the Nordstream pipeline can deliver gas to Germany—that’s it. If circumstances change such that Russia no longer wants to deliver gas to Germany, the pipeline has no value to them. It doesn’t matter that it’s theirs. It’s not like they can use it for something else.

Russia controls the valves and germany controls the sanctions... anti-gas sanctions come from germany, russia closes the valve, no gas for germany.

Then a cold winter comes, gas prices get very high (especially since the americans are inflating the price), german industry is fucked, people are paying a lot for heat (or being cold), and there's putin with "just lessen the sanctions, stop sending stuff to ukraine, and you get the cheap gas back". And the only one standing between the (relatively strong) industry and cold people are Scholz (...and Ursula) and a lot of "alternatives" who could take their place.

Germany and russia being friendly? American biggest nightmare... as they've said before, literally, on camera, they'll stop the nordstreams, and they did. Now, even if people of germany get fed up and replace the current politicians, they won't get the cheap gas again.

So, russia has less money, germany has less industry, usa gets stronger and can sell overpriced gas... so only one winner in this outcome, and it's not russia.

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