The FBI’s most controversial surveillance tool is under threat • Hacker News Board

Re: The FBI’s most controversial surveillance tool is under threat

#41

Post by philippejara » Sun, Feb 12, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

"In another incident, the FBI ran searches using the “names of a local political party,” even though a connection to foreign intelligence was “not reasonably likely.” The DOJ explained the errors away by saying FBI personnel “misunderstood” the search procedures, adding they were “subsequently reminded of how to correctly apply the query rules.”"

Fascinating, FISA was created iirc in part in response to nixon's spying on political groups, half a century later this is what we see and the response is just to...remind them how to correctly apply the query rules? If that is the response to such a thing I find it hard to believe it isn't a common occurrence that is just being hand waved away because it "leaked". And the article itself is filled with even more examples.

I'm not opposed to calling the new age church committee politically motivated, it clearly is, but at the very least they are trying to do something about it. It's pretty sad how after the russiagate conspiracy theory took steam the "left-wing" media started putting the intelligence community in a pedestal and now it seems like distrusting them is a republican position, bizarrely.

Re: The FBI’s most controversial surveillance tool is under threat

#42

Post by brookst » Sun, Feb 12, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

newZWhoDis wrote: post #33

ren_engineer wrote: post #31

even if this gets fixed they can still use 5 eyes to get around it, US and friends use loopholes to have each other spy on their citizens to get around their own laws protecting citizens. It adds an extra step but they still get the info they want

5 eyes as a concept is essentially institutionalized treason. There’s no such thing as a friendly foreign intelligence service, their goals are directly against the interest of the American public/civilian world (which in theory our intelligence services work for) A CIA officer conspiring with GCHQ to defraud the United States should result in lifetime imprisonment.

That is not a good take. There are many moral and political concerns with five eyes, but casting all international cooperation as “treason” discredits your position.

Re: The FBI’s most controversial surveillance tool is under threat

#43

Post by jacooper » Sun, Feb 12, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

newZWhoDis wrote: post #34

jacooper wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is more like, the agency that is specialized in security is also responsible for digital surveillance with practically zero oversight.

I would be totally onboard with an NSA that acted purely in a defensive manner. Imagine getting a notice from the NSA that your Wordpress was vulnerable and exposed customer data because your server devs suck. Imagine an NSA that actually sent zero days to Apple instead of exploiting them.

> Imagine getting a notice from the NSA that your Wordpress was vulnerable and exposed customer data because your server devs suck.

BTW, this already exists in multiple countries, like Germany and now the UK [1/2]

[1] https://www.bsi.bund.de/EN/Themen/Unternehmen-und-Organisati...

[2] https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/british-govt-...

Re: The FBI’s most controversial surveillance tool is under threat

#44

Post by samstave » Sun, Feb 12, 2023, 5:26 PM UTC

beebmam wrote: post #37

localplume wrote: post #24

Of course here come the articles undermining the intelligence community, right in the wake of the Chinese balloon incursions and continued Chinese/Russian foreign intelligence efforts, and at its core are republicans. As usual these articles pertaining to the IC massively misunderstand, misrepresent, and downright act against the interests of the United States by so feverently spurring on the de-fanging of intelligen…

The FBI is already profoundly ineffective. I'd be good with empowering it further it as long as there is bipartisan congressional oversight, same with our police in general.

I am not trying to be flippant, but this is a profoundly naive comment you have made.

The FBI, CIA, NSA is filled to the brim with assholes. Who then blackmail and fund assholes that are meant to oversee them, but don't. Instead they enable the perverse sense of 'justice' we see in this world.

I am not some exterminist-minded person, but there is no denying the fact that FN psychos fill these orgs.

-

Ill give you an example from ~2005 or such, I think...

RSA conference in San Francisco.

I met the head of cyber security for the US... him and his team. They invited me to dinner as I worked for Lockheed.

There was a guy sitting at the table, maybe ~24-ish, super black bags under his eyes.. (meaning he didnt sleep much) and he was bragging the entire dinner about their red/blue hacking teams they were doing to hack shit...

Now this was a controlled environ of them plating team agains team to hack/infiltrate(physically -- lock picking etc) eachothers' area to get pay-dirt...

But it was the extreme psycho-pathy that really struck me...

I know that we have the best military there is, but it was truly weird to see the amount of glee that came from one who is empowered by the MIC in this way...

and this was the RSA conf nearly 20 years ago...

Re: The FBI’s most controversial surveillance tool is under threat

#45

Post by LgWoodenBadger » Sun, Feb 12, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

philippejara wrote: post #41

"In another incident, the FBI ran searches using the “names of a local political party,” even though a connection to foreign intelligence was “not reasonably likely.” The DOJ explained the errors away by saying FBI personnel “misunderstood” the search procedures, adding they were “subsequently reminded of how to correctly apply the query rules.”" Fascinating, FISA was created iirc in part in response to nixon's spyin…

There are worse consequences for bank tellers looking up celebrity banking info, or customer service reps looking up celebrity medical info, than there are for this crap.

Ridiculous

Re: The FBI’s most controversial surveillance tool is under threat

#46

Post by IncRnd » Sun, Feb 12, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #21

It's good to see here that one part of the government is calling another part to account. But I have to think that's unusual, and I'd love to see a better balance of responsibilities here. In Greg Bear's novel "Queen of Angels", set in 2047, their solution to the conflicting needs of privacy and crime prevention was a separate organization called "Citizen Oversight". All the digital-trail data (cameras, financial rec…

> It's good to see here that one part of the government is calling another part to account. But I have to think that's unusual, and I'd love to see a better balance of responsibilities here.

This is the very reason and design for the three branches of government and the origin of the term, "checks and balances."

Re: The FBI’s most controversial surveillance tool is under threat

#47

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Feb 12, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

uog2jeeY3Jaiphu wrote: post #35

boomboomsubban wrote: post #15

>While the analyst attempted to remove the US information, in some cases, it said, they “inadvertently failed” to do so. A reminder that every abuse we hear of is one they failed at covering up. The most famous example of this is MKUltra, where everything we know about the program is from one document cache that survived the incinerator by being mislabeled.

[dead]

[deleted]

Re: The FBI’s most controversial surveillance tool is under threat

#48

Post by IncRnd » Sun, Feb 12, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

ghqst wrote: post #23

jacooper wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you mean to reply to another comment?

I don't think so? Is impeachment not the constitution's solution to politicians who do unlawful things in office?

No, that's not universally true for the US... There aren't constitutional mechanisms for impeaching any and all politicians.

Re: The FBI’s most controversial surveillance tool is under threat

#49

Post by philippejara » Sun, Feb 12, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

willmadden wrote: post #36

deepsquirrelnet wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not certain whether it’s an issue of training or an issue of lack of accountability. It certainly seems like a time of reckoning must come for all levels of law enforcement, where we get back to upholding the law rather than being above it. By now, almost everybody in the country seems to take issue with one or more areas of law enforcement and/or judiciary. Belief in justice seems to be at a very low point.

I think there’s a general lack of confidence in the integrity of elections, especially given what’s been revealed in the Twitter files and that “mules” documentary. I don’t see how anything can change without election integrity and ensuring the standing government cannot interfere in elections. That’s the only way any of the government overreach can be curtailed. Bureaucrats aren’t going to oversee themselves. They w…

I don't think this is a problem of election integrity, the abuse is being done by un-elected people which while some are appointed most aren't. It is an accountability issue, call something a threat to national security and now everything's free game. The people doing those violations should at the very least be fired, but repeatedly doing them -or repeatedly overseeing them- should lead to jail, especially if it is targeted at political parties.

Re: The FBI’s most controversial surveillance tool is under threat

#50

Post by giantg2 » Sun, Feb 12, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #21

It's good to see here that one part of the government is calling another part to account. But I have to think that's unusual, and I'd love to see a better balance of responsibilities here. In Greg Bear's novel "Queen of Angels", set in 2047, their solution to the conflicting needs of privacy and crime prevention was a separate organization called "Citizen Oversight". All the digital-trail data (cameras, financial rec…

Any group who becomes part of the system will then act to protect the system. I mean, judges are supposed to grant warrants for things already, yet we continually see stories of them just rubber stamping requests, or police lying to obtain them. I assume that system would suffer similar issues.