Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information • Hacker News Board

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#81

Post by yodsanklai » Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 10:39 PM UTC

antegamisou wrote: post #41

angmarsbane wrote: post #35

Isn’t part of the benefit of getting into these universities the fact that you get to interact with people from a wealthier economic class? You have the opportunity to meet people who can invest in your ventures or who can introduce you to people who can.

> You have the opportunity to meet people who can invest in your ventures. and who are also completely lacking empathy for the financially challenged at best, disregard and look down upon the less privileged at worst. Both may lead to social isolation of persons with different socioeconomic background attending said schools.

I attended an elite institution in my country.

My experience:

- people from less privileged background didn't need empathy. By being there, they were bound to have a successful career

- students tend to get along better with people from similar background/interest but there were enough diversity so that nobody felt they didn't belong, and nobody was looked down.

That being said, we don't have as much inequalities as in the US and also no quota/positive discrimination. Everybody who was there passed the same selective anonymous exams, which I think is very important. I can see why US students who benefited from favorable admissions criteria are looked down or suffer from imposter syndrome.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#82

Post by latency-guy2 » Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 10:40 PM UTC

vagabund wrote: post #21

Analemma_ wrote: post #17

To the people complaining about this: this is actually a very positive development that I welcome and you should too. This entire time, elite U.S. colleges have been carefully steering conversations about admissions in the direction of racial quotas, to avoid talking about how by far the largest driver of unfairness in the admissions process is legacy admissions and donation quid pro quo arrangements. If you want to…

> U.S. colleges have been carefully steering conversations about admissions in the direction of racial quotas, to avoid talking about how by far the largest driver of unfairness in the admissions process is legacy admissions and donation quid pro quo arrangements. A lesson that generalizes well. Remember Occupy Wall Street, Piketty's tome, the Bernie primaries? It all feels like distant history now.

Only if you have been led to believe any of those things were popular.

Occupy Wall Street had participants that counted at most 30,000 cumulatively across demonstrations in NY and surrounding areas. Impressive number? Not in my opinion.

Admittedly, I have no idea what the hell 'Piketty's tome' is, so I won't talk about it, seems like its related to a few books that sold 1.5m copies, pretty successful, that's it from me for now though.

Bernie in 2016 received ~43% of the vote in democratic primaries, in 2020 he slipped down to ~26%, neither times was he close. Hillary received ~55% in 2016, Joe received ~51% in 2020. Opinion polls consistently put Hillary far above Bernie throughout the entire election season. In 2020, Joe also had the highest approval rating amongst candidates in DNC, only dropping for a few weeks where admittedly Bernie had higher approval, but then dropped it when it really mattered.

So you'll have to point to me where exactly these people are popular, maybe within their own world? Maybe by spending? That only works for Bernie, not for Occupy Wall Street which was a very minor event by all measures. Can't speak to Picketty, so I will leave that undecided on my end, and let you define it's success.

Note, I am far from a Democrat or a Socialist, in fact I'm Republican through and through.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#83

Post by busterarm » Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 10:45 PM UTC

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #23

Analemma_ wrote: post #17

To the people complaining about this: this is actually a very positive development that I welcome and you should too. This entire time, elite U.S. colleges have been carefully steering conversations about admissions in the direction of racial quotas, to avoid talking about how by far the largest driver of unfairness in the admissions process is legacy admissions and donation quid pro quo arrangements. If you want to…

And this will be very very good popcorn-munching drama. I mean, I do think that students getting in because daddy gives a couple million isn't the end of the world. The college I went to 20 years ago went away from need-blind admissions, which basically meant if you can pay you get some preference. Now THAT was bad, because it affected the general student population. If instead you have a reserved number of "bribe" s…

> I love how admissions of athletes to play sports gets a total pass. Probably because it putatively is a good means for minorities to get into schools, even if they are separated off into purely sports training tracks and joke academics.

And sadly, even if they succeed on this track into the world of professional sports, the joke academics and lack of financial training (if you had a financial education you would never play college sports anyway...) mean that they're set up to go broke and fail in life as soon as the injuries add up or their athletic ability is no longer exceptional to their peer group.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#84

Post by cm2187 » Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 10:46 PM UTC

janalsncm wrote: post #73

neonsunset wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was going so well until the pivot in the last two paragraphs. Is admitting the most capable students unfair? It is inherently discriminatory based on their knowledge and ability, which seems is what people want, but it also means that having more resources to be better equipped aka better nurture, which tends to positively influence individual's prospects, is suddenly something many are not okay with? Obviously,…

Ironically present-day Chinese college admissions are arguably far more meritocratic than American college admissions. The main factor is performance on the Gaokao exam, an 8 hour test which dwarfs the SAT’s 3 hours.

I am too remote from this system to have strong opinions but I also heard all the princelings are doing great at those exams!

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#85

Post by moonchrome » Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 10:48 PM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #77

Aloha wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be middle class or upper middle class and have that viewpoint if you've had insufficient exposure to people from different socioeconomic backgrounds.

Try gambling (say, poker) with the ultra rich. They don't really give a shit win or lose because they like the entertainment, but they _absolutely hate_ to lose to someone who needs the money. For one, that money is never coming back to the table for them to win back later, and two, that person was playing for completely different stakes as the rest of the table and actually "got over" on them. If you even want to ge…

Generalizing gambling anecdotes sounds like a huge leap.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#86

Post by bobwaycott » Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 10:48 PM UTC

LarryMullins wrote: post #47

bloodyplonker22 wrote: post #37

This is the type of equality of opportunity that is worth fighting for rather than the racist type which included acts such as affirmative action.

The last time this sort of class-awareness trend got started in America was Occupy Wall Street, and the corporate media killed it by platforming and showcasing the looniest most alienating fringes of that movement, starting the descent into the 'racist' style of progressive activism which most of the public find alienating ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americ... ) I think they'll do it again…

Indeed. The historically proven and repeated best method to kill any moment of social and political consciousness that unites multiple segments of society across race, class, and gender lines is to turn everyone’s attention to a new divisive identity politics—breaking down the common threads that bring people of vastly different backgrounds together to mutually support and advocate for each other.

Sadly, the weak left in the US falls for it every time, shrinking at each step, becoming incapable of providing a vision for a better future for all—because they all start fighting over who’s doing the identity politics thing better. The right uselessly plays into the new narrative by fighting over how much they should have to even care about the new identity politics, arguing for a return to the time before the identity politics became the dominant theme.

With both sides playing a pointless game, the damage is done—the fight that united people rarely returns with the same force it had before (as people exhaust themselves over divisive identity politics), and neoliberal dominance secures another decade or so of relative ease and impunity.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#87

Post by Ekaros » Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 10:50 PM UTC

q1w2 wrote: post #43

I used to work in the admissions office of a top 5 school in the US. I was naive and initially shocked by "the list" when I was told about it. A list of applicants who were the children of faculty, staff, very large benefactors, and politicians. They could NOT be denied by any admissions councilor without a very serious reason (eg. convicted of a violent crime). I raised an eyebrow. Then I discovered that that list a…

And at that point. I think it should be entirely open auction. 25% of incoming class going to highest bidder in order. Then that money would be used to lower tuition of the other 75%.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#88

Post by busterarm » Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 10:50 PM UTC

moonchrome wrote: post #85

busterarm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try gambling (say, poker) with the ultra rich. They don't really give a shit win or lose because they like the entertainment, but they _absolutely hate_ to lose to someone who needs the money. For one, that money is never coming back to the table for them to win back later, and two, that person was playing for completely different stakes as the rest of the table and actually "got over" on them. If you even want to ge…

Generalizing gambling anecdotes sounds like a huge leap.

Gambling shows you a person's true nature.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#89

Post by danheskett » Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 10:58 PM UTC

Telemakhos wrote: post #59

jedberg wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is admitting the most capable students unfair? Are they actually the most capable students, or did they just have a better chance of getting higher scores on the arbitrary metrics chosen? And if so, why did they have a higher chance? There is a difference between better nurture and lack of opportunity. It's true, we shouldn't be correcting for lack of opportunity at the college admissions level, we should be doing…

Would different test-based or merit-based metrics radically change the result? After all, isn't the purpose of a holistic approach to college admissions basically to make the criterion not one of any measurement of quality merit, but of belonging to the right demographic mix that the college seeks to attain? Further, why should colleges try to correct for lack of opportunity? Their job is to educate people, and not e…

You've accidental confused achievement and ability.

A student who goes to a poor school who offers zero AP classes will always achieve lower weighted GPAs than students who go to wealthy schools that offer many AP classes. No amount of individual achievement will overcome that mathematical disadvatnage.

Racism comes into when, because of racism, it just so happens that schools who are well funded and can give that advantage are overwhelmingly white, and schools who are are poorly funded and cannot give that advantage are overwhelmingly non-white.

Suggesting that a student who is "placed above his or her station" into an elite program is setup for failure is a favorite of a few SCOTUS Justices, but in fact is not supported by evidence. Graduation and other metrics of success are not strongly correlated to past attainment, primarily because most programs have already had to deal with achievement inequities, and the most successful programs already have mechanisms to even out unequal prior achievement. Virtually all programs that have elite programs already have a substantial apparatus dedicated to filling achievement gaps between incoming students.

The larger question of "what is the purpose of college" and "is it to educate people" is bigger than this thread, but shouldn't be overlooked. For schools that are publicly funded in whole or part, there should be a larger mission than sending young adults through an educational meat grinder. The public mission of public universities should absolutely have a social justice component.

There is absolutely no doubt that we could design an education system which, at an early age, divides and tracks students towards a successful and high level of attainment. By ruthlessly focusing resources on those children with the best chances of success, and minimizing resources expended on those with lower changes of success, the system could produce many multiples of positive outcomes than we do now, but at the cost of many more left with almost no attainment. Our present distribution of resources, in the US, is haphazardly assembled and produces a balance of outcomes, but is by no means optimized for any particular set of outcomes.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#90

Post by leereeves » Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 11:01 PM UTC

latency-guy2 wrote: post #82

vagabund wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> U.S. colleges have been carefully steering conversations about admissions in the direction of racial quotas, to avoid talking about how by far the largest driver of unfairness in the admissions process is legacy admissions and donation quid pro quo arrangements. A lesson that generalizes well. Remember Occupy Wall Street, Piketty's tome, the Bernie primaries? It all feels like distant history now.

Only if you have been led to believe any of those things were popular. Occupy Wall Street had participants that counted at most 30,000 cumulatively across demonstrations in NY and surrounding areas. Impressive number? Not in my opinion. Admittedly, I have no idea what the hell 'Piketty's tome' is, so I won't talk about it, seems like its related to a few books that sold 1.5m copies, pretty successful, that's it from…

43% of the vote in democratic primaries is quite popular.

And Bernie is a great example because identity politics was specifically used against him; his supporters were derided as mostly white male "Bernie Bros".

Sounds like exactly what GP was talking about: steering conversations to race and sex to avoid talking about economic inequality.