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Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

reuters.com

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Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#51

Post by jedberg »

Telemakhos wrote: post #30
Analemma_ wrote: post #17

To the people complaining about this: this is actually a very positive development that I welcome and you should too. This entire time, elite U.S. colleges have been carefully steering conversations about admissions in the direction of racial quotas, to avoid talking about how by far the largest driver of unfairness in the admissions process is legacy admissions and donation quid pro quo arrangements. If you want to…

Imagine what would happen if colleges fired their admissions departments, set aside all considerations of wealth and race, and had a database admit students with a single query on a result of standardized test results ordered from highest score to lowest, accepting students in that order until the year's class was filled.

That's how University of California admissions used to work for the most part. The formula was:

    Weighted GPA * 1000 + SAT Score + SAT II English + SAT II Math + max(remaining SAT II scores)
Then they ordered everyone by that number, and if say they were offering 5000 kids admission, the top 2500 would automatically get an offer letter. Then they would work their way down the list reading essays and adding bonuses for things like growing up in a rural area or an underfunded district with fewer AP classes.

They would then just keep admitting people until they hit 5000 offers.

Then they got accused of racism because that process ended up overweighting Whites and Asians compared to the applicant pool for all the top schools.

There is/was a lot of debate on why Whites and Asians did better, but when you dug in it turned out they tended to almost all be upper-middle class or wealthy. So basically it was wealth and systemic racism, masked by "standardized testing".

Also it should be noted that wealthy people had a better chance at a higher weighted GPA because their schools offered more AP courses.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#52

Post by bloodyplonker22 »

LarryMullins wrote: post #47
bloodyplonker22 wrote: post #37

This is the type of equality of opportunity that is worth fighting for rather than the racist type which included acts such as affirmative action.

The last time this sort of class-awareness trend got started in America was Occupy Wall Street, and the corporate media killed it by platforming and showcasing the looniest most alienating fringes of that movement, starting the descent into the 'racist' style of progressive activism which most of the public find alienating ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americ... ) I think they'll do it again…

Occupy Wall street was not really about equality of opportunity. It was more about equality of outcome.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#53

Post by _liym »

Analemma_ wrote: post #17

To the people complaining about this: this is actually a very positive development that I welcome and you should too. This entire time, elite U.S. colleges have been carefully steering conversations about admissions in the direction of racial quotas, to avoid talking about how by far the largest driver of unfairness in the admissions process is legacy admissions and donation quid pro quo arrangements. If you want to…

You are spot on. I'm a middle-class student who played the game to get into one of the six schools mentioned in this article. It was immediately obvious that the "diversity" of my school came from a large number of dual citizens living a life of luxury and privilege. Racial quotas were a red carpet for the international elite who spoke the same language and shared the same life experiences regardless of their race, whether they came from anti-Democratic countries or upstate New York. These same individuals got special platforms to talk about adversity while I went to bed hungry. I am grateful for the financial aid that was given to me, and I will always appreciate the large endowment that supported this, but I hope the admissions system gets exposed for what it is.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#54

Post by neonsunset »

jedberg wrote: post #51
Telemakhos wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine what would happen if colleges fired their admissions departments, set aside all considerations of wealth and race, and had a database admit students with a single query on a result of standardized test results ordered from highest score to lowest, accepting students in that order until the year's class was filled.

That's how University of California admissions used to work for the most part. The formula was: Weighted GPA * 1000 + SAT Score + SAT II English + SAT II Math + max(remaining SAT II scores) Then they ordered everyone by that number, and if say they were offering 5000 kids admission, the top 2500 would automatically get an offer letter. Then they would work their way down the list reading essays and adding bonuses for…

This was going so well until the pivot in the last two paragraphs.

Is admitting the most capable students unfair? It is inherently discriminatory based on their knowledge and ability, which seems is what people want, but it also means that having more resources to be better equipped aka better nurture, which tends to positively influence individual's prospects, is suddenly something many are not okay with?

Obviously, the SAT tests are flawed one way or another. But then again, they don't care for students' superficial characteristics.

If not that, then implied statement is very reminiscent to slogans used in USSR or during cultural revolution in China.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#55

Post by [deleted] »

Telemakhos wrote: post #30
Analemma_ wrote: post #17

To the people complaining about this: this is actually a very positive development that I welcome and you should too. This entire time, elite U.S. colleges have been carefully steering conversations about admissions in the direction of racial quotas, to avoid talking about how by far the largest driver of unfairness in the admissions process is legacy admissions and donation quid pro quo arrangements. If you want to…

Imagine what would happen if colleges fired their admissions departments, set aside all considerations of wealth and race, and had a database admit students with a single query on a result of standardized test results ordered from highest score to lowest, accepting students in that order until the year's class was filled.

[deleted]

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#56

Post by Kon-Peki »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #20
remote_phone wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree but I’m always wondering how admissions departments and those who are in charge benefit from donations. I understand bribery, but this is a bit different. If the money goes to universities for a donation, do people somehow get rewarded for this?

It's all about access - donate money, get your children into a place where they can have access to political and professional networks. That's the University of Southern California admissions scandal. More money gets you a voice in hiring committees where you can set the tone of the department and shape political discourse. The Koch brothers (those people again) did that very successfully with George Mason University…

> It's all about access - donate money, get your children into a place

There is also a flip side to this coin, which is why universities usually call this the “development” office.

If you are going to give money away, you are very likely to give it to an organization to which you have some sort of affinity to. Universities are actively trying to cultivate that affinity so they can capture some or all of your charitable spending. And they really, really don’t want any donor to know how much they’ve been manipulated. Many people really believe that their child earned their admission letter based on merit.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#57

Post by jedberg »

neonsunset wrote: post #54
jedberg wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how University of California admissions used to work for the most part. The formula was: Weighted GPA * 1000 + SAT Score + SAT II English + SAT II Math + max(remaining SAT II scores) Then they ordered everyone by that number, and if say they were offering 5000 kids admission, the top 2500 would automatically get an offer letter. Then they would work their way down the list reading essays and adding bonuses for…

This was going so well until the pivot in the last two paragraphs. Is admitting the most capable students unfair? It is inherently discriminatory based on their knowledge and ability, which seems is what people want, but it also means that having more resources to be better equipped aka better nurture, which tends to positively influence individual's prospects, is suddenly something many are not okay with? Obviously,…

> Is admitting the most capable students unfair?

Are they actually the most capable students, or did they just have a better chance of getting higher scores on the arbitrary metrics chosen? And if so, why did they have a higher chance?

There is a difference between better nurture and lack of opportunity. It's true, we shouldn't be correcting for lack of opportunity at the college admissions level, we should be doing it at the elementary level and younger.

But it's a lot easier to correct it at the college admissions level, which is a good choke point in one's life path, so for now, that is where the focus is.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#58

Post by julienchastang »

q1w2 wrote: post #43

I used to work in the admissions office of a top 5 school in the US. I was naive and initially shocked by "the list" when I was told about it. A list of applicants who were the children of faculty, staff, very large benefactors, and politicians. They could NOT be denied by any admissions councilor without a very serious reason (eg. convicted of a violent crime). I raised an eyebrow. Then I discovered that that list a…

> Then I discovered that that list accounted for a full 25% of EVERY incoming class.

This is open knowledge. From the WSJ, https://www.wsj.com/articles/to-get-into-the-ivy-league-extr...:

```

Nearly half of white students admitted to Harvard between 2009 and 2014 were recruited athletes, legacy students, children of faculty and staff, or on the dean’s interest list—applicants whose parents or relatives have donated to Harvard, according to a 2019 study published in the National Bureau of Economic Research.

At Harvard, low-income students with top academic scores had an admit rate of 24% compared to 15% for all other applicants, according to a 2013 study by the school. Harvard has said it believes enrolling a diverse student body is important because the school wants students to learn to work with people from different backgrounds.

“The middle class tends to get a little bit neglected,” said Hafeez Lakhani, a private college counselor in New York who charges $1,200 an hour. “Twenty years ago, Ms. Younger would have had a good shot at an Ivy League school.”

```

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#59

Post by Telemakhos »

jedberg wrote: post #57
neonsunset wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was going so well until the pivot in the last two paragraphs. Is admitting the most capable students unfair? It is inherently discriminatory based on their knowledge and ability, which seems is what people want, but it also means that having more resources to be better equipped aka better nurture, which tends to positively influence individual's prospects, is suddenly something many are not okay with? Obviously,…

> Is admitting the most capable students unfair? Are they actually the most capable students, or did they just have a better chance of getting higher scores on the arbitrary metrics chosen? And if so, why did they have a higher chance? There is a difference between better nurture and lack of opportunity. It's true, we shouldn't be correcting for lack of opportunity at the college admissions level, we should be doing…

Would different test-based or merit-based metrics radically change the result? After all, isn't the purpose of a holistic approach to college admissions basically to make the criterion not one of any measurement of quality merit, but of belonging to the right demographic mix that the college seeks to attain?

Further, why should colleges try to correct for lack of opportunity? Their job is to educate people, and not everyone is apt for higher education. Admitting a student with poor mathematical abilities into a rigorous engineering program is just setting that student up for failure, not recompensing him for opportunities lost or squandered earlier.

Re: Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritism' information

#60

Post by ameister14 »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #49
peacefulhat wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not if they took your seat

If you dont give the wealthy an unfair seat then they will not be in that university. Instead they will be forced to go to another private school which will receive their endowments, and soon grow to the point they can compete with elite schools. Harvard, et all will still be good schools but not the "best" schools that people die to get into.

While the universities can completely do that, they can't get an antitrust exception while they do. That's the issue here, I think. The universities are colluding with one another as regards pricing and financial aid. This was allowed under an exception to antitrust law so long as financial aid played no role in admissions. The group is alleging that financial aid, or the lack of it, plays a role in admitting rich students. If that's the case, it's possible (but not anywhere close to certain) that the universities don't qualify for the antitrust exception.
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