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The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

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Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#41

Post by nirvana »

kennywinker wrote: post #35
nirvana wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These are projects, not products. You're making a donation, not buying something. That this was a sale isn't a question of perspective, but the legal fact of the matter. The project I funded advertised itself as "pre-sales". It was not asking for donations, it was asking for pledges to buy the product. Nowhere has there been any implication, let alone statement that I'm not "guaranteed" the product I purchased. >The…

"Each project is crafted solely by its creator, and it’s up to them to make the case that they can successfully bring their project to life. Part of every creator’s job is earning their backers’ trust, especially backers who don’t personally know them. Creators are encouraged to share links to their personal website(s), as well as any websites that show work related to the project, or past projects. The web is an exc…

Kickstarter can say whatever they want in their FAQ. It doesn't change the law. It doesn't change the contracts they signed with Amazon. It doesn't change the contract Amazon signed with the credit card companies. It doesn't change the FTC regulations for sales. It doesn't change the fact that this product was advertised for sale, explicitly. Further, nothing in this indicates that it was a "donation" or on the "honor" system, nor absolves kickstarter of liability for being a party to fraud, either morally or legally.

I won't be doing any more business with kickstarter because they have shown themselves to not be a trustworthy entity. Not because this guy is late with his deliveries, but because they don't care. They're party to fraud that has gone on for more than a year in other cases, with no signs of delivery. And they don't care.

If you're happy using kickstarter to give money to projects without expecting any kind of a delivery, that's fine for you. Where you're wrong is in telling me I'm wrong, for being upset that a product that was explicitly SOLD to me, was not delivered.

You're telling me to change my perspective. This isn't an issue of perspective. You can give your money away however you like. I'm not telling you your wrong. I am telling you that the fact of the matter is, I was sold a product. I was not solicited for a donation.

Kickstarter is not an entity that is trustworthy with money.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#42

Post by nirvana »

rdl wrote: post #39
nirvana wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're both right. He's making good progress for a flashlight that was at the state of development it turned out to be, its just that I didn't pledge to fund a flashlight at that state of development. If I'd known what I know now, I wouldn't have put up the money, or I would have only bought one or something like that. Also, I had very specific intentions for this purchase. Supporting an engineering project like this,…

Yeah, all of the alternative investment market stuff is basically a hack to get around SEC regulations (and state blue sky securities laws, which are even more strict and insane; SEC compliance is a form of safe harbor against those. A friend of mine is a securities lawyer; this seems like the shittiest job in the world) If you need a flashlight today, btw, my favorites are the Novatac, but for the money, the Fenix l…

I've been using Fenix lights for years. We have several L1Ds among us. I love the multi-mode of them, flashing, including SOS, etc. Since these are rechargable we have enerloop batteries that we can recharge using the computers USB port. Hate the idea of trying to find unusual batteries in an obscure location.

Since we travel internationally all the time and since some of us are female, some form of self defense is needed.

The specfic purpose for which I bought the Hexbright was to be able to program a random flashing mode into the flashlight. This would work as a self defense device in dim or dark situations, simply be shining the flashlight into the eyes of an attacker.

It makes it hard for an attacker to see where you are across a room (while a solidly on light is easy to pinpoint) and induces a kind of blindness. (as I understand it, I've not experienced it.)

Its not the strength of pepper spray or a real weapon, but it has the unbeatable advantage of not being a problem with customs-- its just a flashlight.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#43

Post by X-Istence »

hop wrote: post #17

I bought an aluminum Element Vapor Pro and it has no problems. I actually got it to see how it fits in my current Kickstarter project, the Elevation Dock, b/c a lot of people asked and they love them. It has plastic around the top left corner and small foam pads so the aluminum never touches the steel antenna. If I were these guys, I would machine out the corner and make a polycarbonate piece to fit. If anyone here h…

You have no idea much I am looking forward to having the Elevation Dock in my hands and using it!

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#44

Post by rdl »

nirvana wrote: post #42
rdl wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, all of the alternative investment market stuff is basically a hack to get around SEC regulations (and state blue sky securities laws, which are even more strict and insane; SEC compliance is a form of safe harbor against those. A friend of mine is a securities lawyer; this seems like the shittiest job in the world) If you need a flashlight today, btw, my favorites are the Novatac, but for the money, the Fenix l…

I've been using Fenix lights for years. We have several L1Ds among us. I love the multi-mode of them, flashing, including SOS, etc. Since these are rechargable we have enerloop batteries that we can recharge using the computers USB port. Hate the idea of trying to find unusual batteries in an obscure location. Since we travel internationally all the time and since some of us are female, some form of self defense is n…

I totally agree about lights for self defense -- they're the one thing I carry all the time, followed by an inoffensive folder, and then escalating from there. There is basically no situation other than being in a shower where I don't have at least one 120+ lumen tactical flashlight, and no firearm-defense situation where I don't have a mounted light and/or handheld light. I keep lights stashed by the bed, in my desk, by the door, in the car, etc. too. Imagine an earthquake, fire, etc.!

The "disorienting strobe" mode of the novatac (or other tactical lights) is pretty much optimal (I think it's about 15Hz, 120+ Lumen). I'm not sure how I'd use the fully programmable modes, except maybe to do recognition patterns with other users (although the standard for that is to have some kind of retroreflective squares in specific parts of your clothing, or IR reflectors and an IR light/NVD). The one weakness of the fenix lights I have is the lack of the fast-strobe mode -- some of them have it, but it's harder to access, and a bunch of them don't have it at all. With the novatac, it's a firmware/setting update.

http://www.novatac.com/downloads/data-sheets/20-0104C_120T.p... is the one I like the most, although I preferred the older design where the end switch was convex vs. flat (although you couldn't stand it on the endcap as a "candle").

The novatac is a little thicker, with a scallop in the back and an O-ring, and thus grips better in a syringe grip (which is useful in off-hand when used with a pistol in the other hand).

It also has a nice crenellated front, which the smaller fenix lights don't have. I've broken auto window glass with one (it's not optimal, but works).

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#45

Post by 541564654 »

I just cannot help but notice how much the perception of what Kickstarter is has changed from its initial days. I learned about Kickstarter at the time the Diaspora project was there collecting money. It was clear that people are not "buying" but "investing". They were not "consumers", they were "investors". Diaspora wasn't a "product" on "pre-order" but a "project" which was "under development". How the intent and purpose of the site changed in the minds of both "backers" and project makers is just amazing. Its like the identity of what Kickstarter started out to be has been lost somewhere.

Kickstarter was supposed to replace angle investors and VC. They were supposed to help the little guy start up without all the control of the big guy who had money. The idea, as explained to me on this very forum, was that this was crowd sourced investment. The users here went on to say how this will change the startup culture and help people start more bootstrapped startups without any strings attached. The "rewards" were never a guaranteed thing. They were sort of a thank you and giving out rewards were supposed to be a way to show off that they actually succeeded. Now it seems the whole thing has shifted to a marketplace of sorts. It seems like people are using it as an alternative to ebay or amazone, just that they can have higher flexibility and more contact to their "consumers". The inherent risk of "investing" has been lost and given way to the guarantee of "buying" a product.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#46

Post by ThomPete »

nirvana wrote: post #41
kennywinker wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Each project is crafted solely by its creator, and it’s up to them to make the case that they can successfully bring their project to life. Part of every creator’s job is earning their backers’ trust, especially backers who don’t personally know them. Creators are encouraged to share links to their personal website(s), as well as any websites that show work related to the project, or past projects. The web is an exc…

Kickstarter can say whatever they want in their FAQ. It doesn't change the law. It doesn't change the contracts they signed with Amazon. It doesn't change the contract Amazon signed with the credit card companies. It doesn't change the FTC regulations for sales. It doesn't change the fact that this product was advertised for sale, explicitly. Further, nothing in this indicates that it was a "donation" or on the "hono…

On kickstarter you are an investor not a customer.

It doesn't matter how you make your investment. If you don't want the risk, then yes, KickStater is not a place for you.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#47

Post by nodata »

kennywinker wrote: post #29
nirvana wrote: post #27

I got burned by a kickstarter project. Like others, I naively believed that they were at least an above board outfit. I also appreciated that Amazon was the payments service because I believe they are above board as well. I fell for the "Hexbright Flashlight" project: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/527051507/hexbright-an-o... His pitch was that the product was designed and that he just needed the funding to unde…

I totally appreciate your perspective on this. But I think you were missing part of the point of kickstarter. These are projects, not products. You're making a donation, not buying something. For that donation you are often promised a reward, but you are not guaranteed one. There is a certain amount of risk associated with backing a project on kickstarter. Projects don't always turn out the way you hope. Budget issue…

> You're making a donation, not buying something.

I'm not making a donation, I'm buying a product in advance that hasn't finished being developed.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#48

Post by tlrobinson »

I've seen some neat things coming out of Kickstarter projects, but I get the impression most backers don't understand they're not guaranteed to receive an awesome perfectly functioning polished final product pitched by the creator.

Kickstarter needs to make that more clear.

Also, they need to do something about overfunding. Perhaps hold some of the money back until the product is ready to go into production or something.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#50

Post by tylermenezes »

I'm helping out with a Kickstarter project (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/studentrnd/plasma-speake...) which is already 2 months behind the delivery date, and I just wanted to offer a view from the other side.

Shipping a product is hard. Our initial prototype used some components we had in our parts organizer, and a $100k variable DC power supply Boeing donated. It was pretty cool, so we put it online, and it picked up $20k in donations.

As soon as we put it online, we started working on improvements to the design, and when it was to a point we considered done, we made a board design and ordered parts.

And of course, nothing worked.

We've been working on it for as much time as possible since then (as mentioned in our Kickstarter, the lead designer is a high school student), and even with the help of some local EEs, it's taken forever to get it to even start. The flybacks and PSUs took forever to get to the US, customs held up the package, and FedEx refused to deliver them. Our laser cutter, which we ordered to make the enclosures, was a week late, and took a few days to set up.

Now we're at the point where we're balancing sound quality and time. We can redesign the entire project so it sounds better, but that means another few weeks to get the new boards and parts, or we can just ship what we have.

If we do any Kickstarters in the future, we're obviously going to have a totally more realistic timeframe. But it's apparent that anyone who hasn't shipped a product is going to have no idea of how involved trying to reproduce something in a mass scale is.

That said, it looks like these people took an AWFUL approach to customer support. We've tried to keep people as up-to-date as we were, we've refunded anyone who asked for it and offered to ship laser cut cards to anyone who was planning on giving the plasma speakers as a Christmas gift.

tl;dr: Kickstarter is hard. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

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