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The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

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Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#31

Post by jmonegro »

steve8918 wrote: post #23
veyron wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is that oftentimes most of the money is needed before a first prototype. And many concerns wont emerge until the prototype comes out. So effectively what will happen is that the milestone system will be gamed so that most of them are "paper" or "cad" which dont take much effort.

well, with these projects that are vastly overfunded, like the case example, it seems like most of the money could have been safely put in some sort of escrow so that the founders wouldn't get lazy. And if there's a proper description of the milestones, it seems like gaming might not be so easy. For example, if there were a "test the metal case for signal loss" milestone, and if the founders only gave a half-hearted…

I find this to be reasonable for overfunded project. Release only the funds they requested for, until the milestones are met.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#32

Post by veyron »

steve8918 wrote: post #23
veyron wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is that oftentimes most of the money is needed before a first prototype. And many concerns wont emerge until the prototype comes out. So effectively what will happen is that the milestone system will be gamed so that most of them are "paper" or "cad" which dont take much effort.

well, with these projects that are vastly overfunded, like the case example, it seems like most of the money could have been safely put in some sort of escrow so that the founders wouldn't get lazy. And if there's a proper description of the milestones, it seems like gaming might not be so easy. For example, if there were a "test the metal case for signal loss" milestone, and if the founders only gave a half-hearted…

You can't necessarily fault the founders for not thinking through all of the potential pitfalls. A proper plan will not cover all of these details. Take the apple death grip issue -- they had a plan, it was produced, and the issue was really only emphasized after it was produced and sold to customers.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#33

Post by nirvana »

kennywinker wrote: post #29
nirvana wrote: post #27

I got burned by a kickstarter project. Like others, I naively believed that they were at least an above board outfit. I also appreciated that Amazon was the payments service because I believe they are above board as well. I fell for the "Hexbright Flashlight" project: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/527051507/hexbright-an-o... His pitch was that the product was designed and that he just needed the funding to unde…

I totally appreciate your perspective on this. But I think you were missing part of the point of kickstarter. These are projects, not products. You're making a donation, not buying something. For that donation you are often promised a reward, but you are not guaranteed one. There is a certain amount of risk associated with backing a project on kickstarter. Projects don't always turn out the way you hope. Budget issue…

>These are projects, not products. You're making a donation, not buying something.

That this was a sale isn't a question of perspective, but the legal fact of the matter. The project I funded advertised itself as "pre-sales". It was not asking for donations, it was asking for pledges to buy the product. Nowhere has there been any implication, let alone statement that I'm not "guaranteed" the product I purchased.

>There is a certain amount of risk associated with backing a project on kickstarter.

Sure, but that's not the issue. In this case, the flashlight I ordered was redesigned to be significantly larger than it was initially promised (when it was claimed to be identical to the other flashlight he's selling.)

That increase in size and weight actually makes this product much less suitable to my needs than the original one was. Yes, for me, that is an issue. (I live full time out of a backpack, I travel the world full time- I know the dates these were supposed to ship because I knew when I'd be in the USA and gave him an extra 2 months to ship, even.)

But I didn't even mention this design change. I'm ok with it. I did accept some risk, and I even accepted the risk that he might be as much as 2 months late in shipping. Now that I'm out of the USA, getting the flashlights delivered to me will be more hassle, and significantly more expensive due to import duties and international shipping.

I haven't complained about either of those- that's within the risk.

>Because it's a donation, it's my understanding that kickstarter, amazon, and the police would have no real recourse unless there has been serious fraudulent claims of some kind.

In no way is it a donation. When you offer someone a product for money, that's a sale. This isn't an issue of perspective, this is the nature of the law.

>the whole thing is running on the honor system. They do say that(http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backing%20a%20project#Ac...),

No they don't. Nowhere in there do they say its on the honor system. Nowhere in there do they say its donations. Of course kickstarter is attempting to disclaim responsibility by saying the project starter is responsible for delivery. However, this is not the case under the law of the land, nor the contract that Kickstarter signed with Amazon, nor the contract that Amazon signed with the credit card companies.

I don't care. I'll reverse charges thru Amazon and then Kickstarter can take it up with the project backer.

>You can always give them for xmas next year :)

Yeah, you like this project because you like giving money to people. Great. If this were kiva and I was bitching about a loan not being repaid, you'd be right. But this is not kiva.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#34

Post by rdl »

nirvana wrote: post #27

I got burned by a kickstarter project. Like others, I naively believed that they were at least an above board outfit. I also appreciated that Amazon was the payments service because I believe they are above board as well. I fell for the "Hexbright Flashlight" project: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/527051507/hexbright-an-o... His pitch was that the product was designed and that he just needed the funding to unde…

I am pretty happy with the hexbright flashlight (I funded it, too) -- it's not like anyone doesn't have a flashlight. I'd like to have the most awesome flashlight possible, even if it takes a year. He's been posting monthly or more frequent updates, and making good progress.

I'd be happy to buy out your stake in the project.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#35

Post by kennywinker »

nirvana wrote: post #33
kennywinker wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally appreciate your perspective on this. But I think you were missing part of the point of kickstarter. These are projects, not products. You're making a donation, not buying something. For that donation you are often promised a reward, but you are not guaranteed one. There is a certain amount of risk associated with backing a project on kickstarter. Projects don't always turn out the way you hope. Budget issue…

>These are projects, not products. You're making a donation, not buying something. That this was a sale isn't a question of perspective, but the legal fact of the matter. The project I funded advertised itself as "pre-sales". It was not asking for donations, it was asking for pledges to buy the product. Nowhere has there been any implication, let alone statement that I'm not "guaranteed" the product I purchased. >The…

"Each project is crafted solely by its creator, and it’s up to them to make the case that they can successfully bring their project to life. Part of every creator’s job is earning their backers’ trust, especially backers who don’t personally know them.

Creators are encouraged to share links to their personal website(s), as well as any websites that show work related to the project, or past projects.

The web is an excellent resource for learning about someone’s prior experience. If someone has no demonstrable prior history of doing something like their project or is unwilling to share information, backers should consider that when weighing a pledge. If something sounds too good to be true, it very well may be."

READ: caveat emptor.

I'm not saying this particular kickstarter project hasn't jerked you around. Nor am I saying you have no right to attempt to get your money back. What I am saying is if you look at kickstarter projects like purchases, you're going to be angry eventually.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#36

Post by nirvana »

rdl wrote: post #34
nirvana wrote: post #27

I got burned by a kickstarter project. Like others, I naively believed that they were at least an above board outfit. I also appreciated that Amazon was the payments service because I believe they are above board as well. I fell for the "Hexbright Flashlight" project: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/527051507/hexbright-an-o... His pitch was that the product was designed and that he just needed the funding to unde…

I am pretty happy with the hexbright flashlight (I funded it, too) -- it's not like anyone doesn't have a flashlight. I'd like to have the most awesome flashlight possible, even if it takes a year. He's been posting monthly or more frequent updates, and making good progress. I'd be happy to buy out your stake in the project.

We're both right. He's making good progress for a flashlight that was at the state of development it turned out to be, its just that I didn't pledge to fund a flashlight at that state of development. If I'd known what I know now, I wouldn't have put up the money, or I would have only bought one or something like that.

Also, I had very specific intentions for this purchase.

Supporting an engineering project like this, as sort of a patron of it, is a cool idea.

The idea of trading stakes is also a good one. It would be really cool if we could support startups that way.

We all pledge some amount of money, the startup has milestones, as the milestones are achieved, more funding is required and another round is raised.

If you and I have a disagreement about which direction the startup is going, I could sell you my stake or vice versa. Or I could just hold onto my stake in case I'm wrong and not fund the next round, while you could double up the next round.

If the SEC would allow it, I think that would be a great idea. But we'd all know the risks, we'd all know the state of the project from idea, thru the milestones it had achieved, etc.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#37

Post by underwater »

marquis wrote: post #5
matdwyer wrote: post #2

Disclaimer: I've never used Kickstarter This being said, I was under the impression that funding a project is still a bit of a risk - I'd expect that some projects (like businesses) simply don't work out how they planned - this seems like that type of problem. Of course they should have mentioned the signal problems (and even reached out to see if they could crowd source a solution) but buying in as an early "funder"…

I've funded a few projects of friends. One never materialized but it was worth the shot and the others are in production. If you spread your investments out, some are bound to take off no? I'm in line to receive some great products that wouldn't see the light of day otherwise and I'm excited. You don't get this excited over many things you can buy. I must say though, reading the content of this Kickstarter they don't…

I don't quite understand what the "investors" are getting out of KickStarter. It doesn't seem like prouducts are that unique or cheap. The risk of a project failing or being delayed means I wouldn't buy anything I really needed from there.

It seems like all the benefits are on the producers side. They can start a project with little risk, ask for more money when they mess up their budgetting and still finish up making a tidy profit.

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#38

Post by [deleted] »

shadowmint wrote: post #24

I wish people would stop thinking of Kickstarter as a shop. It's not. The site is very clear in it's FAQ that once a project is funded, delivery of the promised perks is up to the project creator, not up to Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backing%20a%20project#Wh... I've seen some great projects on the site, but you have to realize that you're not buying something. When you see a project that is deve…

[deleted]

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#39

Post by rdl »

nirvana wrote: post #36
rdl wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pretty happy with the hexbright flashlight (I funded it, too) -- it's not like anyone doesn't have a flashlight. I'd like to have the most awesome flashlight possible, even if it takes a year. He's been posting monthly or more frequent updates, and making good progress. I'd be happy to buy out your stake in the project.

We're both right. He's making good progress for a flashlight that was at the state of development it turned out to be, its just that I didn't pledge to fund a flashlight at that state of development. If I'd known what I know now, I wouldn't have put up the money, or I would have only bought one or something like that. Also, I had very specific intentions for this purchase. Supporting an engineering project like this,…

Yeah, all of the alternative investment market stuff is basically a hack to get around SEC regulations (and state blue sky securities laws, which are even more strict and insane; SEC compliance is a form of safe harbor against those. A friend of mine is a securities lawyer; this seems like the shittiest job in the world)

If you need a flashlight today, btw, my favorites are the Novatac, but for the money, the Fenix lights are the best. Generally CR123 based, non-rechargeable, and n. I have Surefire for very specific weapons light applications (e.g. $400 fore-end lights for pump action shotguns, which replace the front grip), and a couple Streamlights for less-specific tactical applications (forward t-grip plus light for an M4).

Re: The worst project I ever funded on Kickstarter

#40

Post by tesseract »

mikeash wrote: post #21
davyjones wrote: post #18

This is a fairly known issue in elec. design. What is happening here is that the case is acting as a Faraday cage ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage ) that blocks out signals. It is not just enough to wear the designer hat. An engineer hat is absolutely essential as well.

It pretty well blows my mind that they just wrapped the whole antenna in metal and didn't think that it might cause problems. You shouldn't need to wear any hats at all for that one, just apply some common sense. When I saw the thing, I assumed they must have come up with some extremely clever way to avoid signal attenuation. Turns out they were just ignoring the blindingly obvious. Oops.

> they must have come up with some extremely clever way to avoid signal attenuation

Which itself would be fairly incredible, considering that Steve Jobs and Jony Ive wanted to make the iPhone out of metal, and for three years they couldn't do so because of the antenna issue, and finally after spending what must have been many millions of dollars and many engineering man-years they came up with a sophisticated solution that was pretty good but even so still had widely publicized issues when it first came on the market.

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