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“How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

seymourhersh.substack.com

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Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#931

Post by miguelazo »

coffeebeqn wrote: post #688
slantedview wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, a threat is not an admission of guilt. But I think most people were unaware of this statement, and how aggressive the US' posture towards the pipeline was, which is important context for this article.

They must have not been paying attention. Trump was very vocal against it and was laughed at by the genius German technocrats. The Obama admin was also against it

More likely they were listening, but continued to pursue the path that was in Germany’s national interest. German voters do not care about helping maintain US hegemony; they care about economic stability and energy security. It will be interesting to see what happens in German domestic politics as more evidence emerges that its supposed ally carried out industrial sabotage against it. The rest of Europe’s voters will also take note.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#932

Post by SergeAx »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #872
SergeAx wrote: post #854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anonymous message is never strong. Non-anonymous message is a casus belli.

Well, this is not really anonymous. I am pretty sure that all secret services and governments around the world are perfectly aware of the situation. Only the press is playing the hypocrisy game, for some reason.

Like in case of aliens in Hangar 18? Don't be ridiculous. Any US news outlet will give arm and leg to break the story like this. Self-publishing on mail list platform means there are so little evidence here, that not a single tabloid was interested.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#933

Post by xg15 »

hackandthink wrote: post #877
alchemist1e9 wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it extremely jarring how many reputable western media outlets immediately jumped to the conclusion that Russia did it even though that made zero sense - but absolutely refused to even consider the possibility that the US or another western state could have done it. One simple hypothesis would be that it is only an illusion that western media outlets are independent from their governments.

A german book by Precht/Welzer argues it's the other way. The media became a power by itsself and it's the media which influences the government. And they analyze how the media synchronized itself on certain topics (especially Ukraine war). https://www.fischerverlage.de/buch/richard-david-precht-hara...

That would match my impression in Germany on issues about involvement in the war. Usually, the government is divided, with FDP and Greens taking a hawkish position, arguing for strong support of Ukraine including weapons and not making any concessions to Russia; while SPD and the chancellor are cautious to the point of dragging their feet.

Meanwhile the press is not similarly divided but usually follows the hawkish position. So whatever opinion they are promoting, it's evidently not the government's.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#934

Post by MickerNews »

hef19898 wrote: post #258
kstenerud wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just flagged this in the hopes that you'll reconsider. It's no secret that Hersh's work has become increasingly suspect in recent years. Every time he writes, he cites a single anonymous source and yet manages to go into an implausible level of detail and completeness with neatly tied up loose ends you'd only expect to find in a Tom Clancy novel. The only reason this story has been rescued from the dustbin is due to…

Yeah, instead of blog posts Hersh should write spy thrillers in tje tradition of the early Tom Clancy works. I would even pay for those, I like the setting and the narrative Hersh oresented in this blog, and the writing, are compelling and good. For a fictional book, not for journalism.

Are you saying you doubt that the US did this? Seriously? Do you have an alternative theory?

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#935

Post by BurnGpuBurn »

The argument that Russia would've taken out it's own pipeline is ludicrous. It's like a store owner blowing up his own store front to punish shop thieves, or something. It doens't make sense. If you want to know who did it, ask yourself: who benefits? Spoiler: it isn't Russia, and it isn't Ukraine or Europe either.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#936

Post by berniedurfee »

mmastrac wrote: post #97

It's a great story, but it's all unsourced and could be a decent Tom Clancy story at best. You could probably write a similar one with Russia or German agents as the key players and be just as convincing. The only anchor in reality appears to be Biden suggesting that they knew how to take it out which seems like a pretty weak place to build a large story. What I find particularly odd is that this entire thing appears…

I agree, very well written and full of detail, but with no shred of evidence, it’s just a theory.

The credibility of the author should never be taken for granted, especially with stories of this sensitive nature. The veracity also depends on an anonymous source, which will likely never be revealed nor verified or verifiable.

I think the danger here is that many people will take the author’s credibility for granted and will be influenced to take some action based on their belief.

I guess that’s okay, but it feels like people ought to come to the conclusion that this is nothing more than an interesting theory, then move on.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#937

Post by miguelazo »

BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #935

The argument that Russia would've taken out it's own pipeline is ludicrous. It's like a store owner blowing up his own store front to punish shop thieves, or something. It doens't make sense. If you want to know who did it, ask yourself: who benefits? Spoiler: it isn't Russia, and it isn't Ukraine or Europe either.

Correct, with a couple exceptions. The Norwegians (listed by Hersh as collaborators in this piece) certainly benefit as well because they can sell more of their own gas too. This was an alliance of convenience between essentially mafioso gas exporters and the US security state that will do anything to harm Russia. https://peoplesworld.org/article/pipeline-ploy-how-u-s-natur...

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#938

Post by miguelazo »

berniedurfee wrote: post #936
mmastrac wrote: post #97

It's a great story, but it's all unsourced and could be a decent Tom Clancy story at best. You could probably write a similar one with Russia or German agents as the key players and be just as convincing. The only anchor in reality appears to be Biden suggesting that they knew how to take it out which seems like a pretty weak place to build a large story. What I find particularly odd is that this entire thing appears…

I agree, very well written and full of detail, but with no shred of evidence, it’s just a theory. The credibility of the author should never be taken for granted, especially with stories of this sensitive nature. The veracity also depends on an anonymous source, which will likely never be revealed nor verified or verifiable. I think the danger here is that many people will take the author’s credibility for granted an…

He’s protecting his source. You can think what you want, but the circumstantial evidence that supports the assertions is voluminous. And it certainly makes more sense than any of the other “theories”, especially the absurd idea that Russia blew up its own pipeline.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#939

Post by diimdeep »

dragonwriter wrote: post #13
mytailorisrich wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at all the players, their interests, and their capabilities, I think the most logical conclusion is that the US likely did it. Of course this is not evidence but this the sort of operation where success means no evidence (at least no evidence available to the public at large as it is possible and, one might hope, likely that neighbouring countries know).

> If you look at all the players, their interests, and their capabilities, I think the most logical conclusion is that the US likely did it. I disagree. The most logical explanation is tha Russia did it as a capacity demonstration and threat against Baltic Pipe to pressure contries in the region regarding Ukraine, but that, like all their threats against the West over Ukraine policy so far, the threat was hollow.

The most logical explanation of why you have so much karma is that you write anything that will get you upvoted, no matter how stupid it is.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#940

Post by bandyaboot »

vintermann wrote: post #907
bandyaboot wrote: post #903

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> men who domestically abuse their wives > known abusive husband Not sure what you’re referring to here. If you’re analogizing what Biden said with domestic abuse, that’s just ridiculous. It’s more akin to telling the wife they’re going to need to divorce if she doesn’t stop threatening the children. If you’re saying the US in general has a history of doing things that could be compared to domestic abuse, sure, but s…

I knew you would take offense at the comparison. But it's not a comparison, it's just an example of the same statistical dishonesty. When the pipeline was in fact blown up, of course we're going to look at vaguely worded threats in another light.

> I knew you would take offense at the comparison.

I was stating my opinion that the comparison was of low intellectual quality, not taking offense.

> When the pipeline was in fact blown up, of course we're going to look at vaguely worded threats in another light.

Except it’s only vaguely worded if you’re approaching it from the bias of wanting to think it was a threat of blowing it up. Approaching it a different way, they’re just the words a person would use if they were talking about ending the project, not literally blowing it up.

If Biden were going to be so aggressive as to threaten to blow up an infrastructure project of a close ally, why specifically limit it to Nordstream 2? “We’re going to lose our ever-loving minds here, but only for phase 2 of the project”.

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