Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback • Hacker News Board

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#171

Post by pfdietz » Thu, Feb 09, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

AstralStorm wrote: post #169

pfdietz wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen for backup storage for the grid would be stored underground. This is a demonstrated working technology.

Underground in what? Leaky container or an even more leaky cave? There is a reason why there are low levels of hydrogen even in oil fields, while there are high levels of methane...

Underground in geological formations. For example, in cavities solution-mined out of salt.

This is a known and proven technology. Despite your pearl clutching, the hydrogen doesn't escape at a rate that would make it unworkable.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#172

Post by beamgirl » Thu, Feb 09, 2023, 3:09 PM UTC

sbradford26 wrote: post #170

zdragnar wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where on earth did they get $250 for a cord of wood? Unless you're buying them 10-13 logger's cords at a time, then cutting and splitting it yourself, a cord of oak around where I live (which is not at all far from oak trees) is in the $450-550 range. You can maybe push it down to $300/cord if you know a guy, but then you're not getting properly seasoned stuff, you're getting stuff recently cut from a dead tree left…

Those prices are just generic prices that you fill out with current prices. I have no idea on the validity of any of the prices filled in by default there, but I assume it is prices that whoever made the site many years ago had in their area.

Even the coal price is super outdated. If you get a reaaaaaaly awesome deal, a ton of anthracite is at minimum $350 a ton now. Those are like 2010 prices.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#173

Post by taylodl » Thu, Feb 09, 2023, 3:16 PM UTC

nicoburns wrote: post #95

rsynnott wrote: post #21

I find all this fear mongering about heatpumps in the US currently to be a little odd, because they've been popular in some cold countries in Europe for some time. If there was going to be a problem, there would already have been a problem.

Apparently part of the problem in the US is unreliable electricity supply. In Europe you can reasonably count on the electricity supply not having an outage of more than a few hours (and even that's rare). According the HN comments on past submissions on this topic, it seems that's not the case in the US.

The US doesn't have an unreliable electricity supply. The overwhelming majority of electric outages have a duration fewer than 4 hours, and most of those have a duration fewer than 2 hours.

There are problems in our more rural areas where the population density is low and damaged equipment may only affect very few customers. They're the lowest on the priority to get restored. In extreme cases it may be several days before your power will be restored. That's an outage event you can expect to occur once every decade.

But if you live in an urban area, urban being 5,000 or more people living in a town, then you have very reliable electricity.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#174

Post by timbit42 » Thu, Feb 09, 2023, 3:47 PM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #159

timbit42 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In parts of Canada, such as Alberta, where it goes to -40C, anyone buying an air source heat pump is nuts. Ground source is the only viable heat pump option, in spite of its much higher cost. I guess they'll be stuck on natural gas until the climate rises some more.

Air source + natural gas for when it’s that cold is still cheaper than ground source.

Over how many years? An air source heat pump that you only use 8 or 9 months of the year will take longer to pay for itself.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#175

Post by mrguyorama » Thu, Feb 09, 2023, 3:53 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #145

mrguyorama wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the electricity fails, you put on a jacket and get under a blanket and wait patiently for CMP to restore your power. Most of us don't have emergency powerless heating. Even with a supposedly unreliable electricity grid here in Maine, it's still pretty common to only have heating that requires electricity to operate. Even in the north, where it's very rural and way colder, wood stoves are still an interesting thi…

I suppose it's the frontier spirit that makes you say "it's -30°F, you put on a jacket and get under a blanket". I'm pretty sure civilization would end over here if Germany had temperatures where F and C come close and heating failed.

The first winter my ancestors spent in this country, half of them died from lack of food and heat. They quite literally didn't know how to function in a non-temperate climate.

The survivors were too stubborn to die so their descendants are often the same.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#176

Post by thehappypm » Thu, Feb 09, 2023, 4:11 PM UTC

timbit42 wrote: post #174

thehappypm wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air source + natural gas for when it’s that cold is still cheaper than ground source.

Over how many years? An air source heat pump that you only use 8 or 9 months of the year will take longer to pay for itself.

Modern heat pumps are rated to about -15F.

In Fort McMurray, a large-ish city in northern Alberta, the average low temperature in the coldest month (January) is -7F. The average low temperature is below -15F about 15 days a year on average. That means you’re really using your heat pump for a huge percent of the time.