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Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

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Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#151

Post by nemo44x »

ilamont wrote: post #13

I live outside of Boston, about two hours south of Portland Maine. We have a LG Heat Pump installed in 2021, consisting of the following: LG/LG LMU360HHV Outdoor Unit 2 LG LSN180HSV5 Indoor Units 2 LG LMN079HVT Indoor Units We also have a natural gas furnace, now rarely used ... except when it gets really cold. During the deep freeze I wanted to see how low the LG could go before the gas furnace kicked in. The house…

> Regardless of the type of heat, many people all over the city had burst pipes in their walls, ceilings, and basements, including several hospitals.

It's amazing how many people simply don't take basic precautionary measures when extreme cold is on the way. Something as basic as letting the faucets drip will prevent freezing. Shutting off the water and opening the taps works too if you don't want to "waste water".

> A few only had heat pumps with no backup and reported the interior temp dropped to the 40s or low 50s (~10C).

A good case for not using heat pumps if you live in a place that can have extreme cold snaps. I have a heatpump for 2 bedrooms but if it stopped working then opening the doors and letting the warm air from the furnaces in would be enough I think. I'd be skeptical of having only a heatpump.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#152

Post by sbradford26 »

zdragnar wrote: post #89
beamgirl wrote: post #28

My dad is a retired heat and power engineer up in Maine (20something years at a paper mill). We probably spent half of Christmas talking about his new minisplit. He has been tracking his electricity bill and heating oil bills in spreadsheets for years. He still has the old oil boiler in place for emergencies, but as far as I know he hasn't had to use it yet this year. He said he wanted more data before he made a defi…

To be fair, pretty much anything would save money over heating oil, including just burning money.

I know it is sarcastic but there is a website where you can calculate how much it would cost to heat with dollar bills.

https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#153

Post by ilamont »

nemo44x wrote: post #151
ilamont wrote: post #13

I live outside of Boston, about two hours south of Portland Maine. We have a LG Heat Pump installed in 2021, consisting of the following: LG/LG LMU360HHV Outdoor Unit 2 LG LSN180HSV5 Indoor Units 2 LG LMN079HVT Indoor Units We also have a natural gas furnace, now rarely used ... except when it gets really cold. During the deep freeze I wanted to see how low the LG could go before the gas furnace kicked in. The house…

> Regardless of the type of heat, many people all over the city had burst pipes in their walls, ceilings, and basements, including several hospitals. It's amazing how many people simply don't take basic precautionary measures when extreme cold is on the way. Something as basic as letting the faucets drip will prevent freezing. Shutting off the water and opening the taps works too if you don't want to "waste water". >…

The other problem with only having a heat pump is if the electricity goes out, which happened across the region (there was a windstorm at the same time as the arctic freeze which brought down trees onto power lines). We have one friend who lost power but thankfully had a working fireplace with fuel, otherwise they would have been in a world of hurt.

The people who had burst pipes mostly seemed to be transplants from outside the northeast, including some from other countries, who have never been exposed to a situation like this or the basic precautions to prevent burst pipes. It's a hard lesson to learn, for sure.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#155

Post by jakedata »

jakedata wrote: post #84

Heat pump electrical usage does not go up as the temperature drops. In fact the actual heat pump itself uses less electricity because the compressor needs to slow down in order to scavenge the outdoor heat needed to vaporize the refrigerant. What causes a spike in electrical usage is the backup resistive heat source that kicks in when the compressor cannot satisfy the demand for heat. Installing a heat pump that is e…

I am forced to reply to myself again before my parent comment gets downvoted to oblivion.

YES - Heat pump efficiency drops with external temperature.

HOWEVER - A typical heat pump will be unable to operate at full power when it approaches it's lower temperature limit. It is unable to move more heat at any efficiency. The compressor will slow down or stop completely while waiting for the liquified refrigerant to vaporize in the evaporator coils.

THEREFORE - Regardless of efficiency the compressor will be using less power because it is either not running or running slowly.

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF - certain heat pumps with auxiliary electrical heaters that cause energy use to spike at extreme low temperatures.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#156

Post by jfengel »

adql wrote: post #69
jfengel wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me that if regulators allow that kind of dynamic pricing, then it would come with much cheaper rates at other times. Suppose you did pay $300 on one cold night... but it also turned out that your electric bill for May and September was basically $0. Would that be the worst thing in the world? Utilities are monopolies, and regulators keep an eye on their total bottom line. A massive yearly profit would come i…

No utility would want to build power plant that works 10% of the year tho, that's the problem

We've already got lots of gas power plants.

The cost of converting them to peaker plants isn't zero, but it's not anywhere near the cost of building new ones.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#157

Post by mrguyorama »

aidenn0 wrote: post #148
mrguyorama wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the electricity fails, you put on a jacket and get under a blanket and wait patiently for CMP to restore your power. Most of us don't have emergency powerless heating. Even with a supposedly unreliable electricity grid here in Maine, it's still pretty common to only have heating that requires electricity to operate. Even in the north, where it's very rural and way colder, wood stoves are still an interesting thi…

Do the pipes in your house not freeze at 30 below with no heat?

It takes time for your place to cool down enough for that to be an issue, and proper pipe insulation is also a normal thing here.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#158

Post by sgent »

aidenn0 wrote: post #10
londons_explore wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For 'enthusiasts', a dual heat source system is a good plan. But regular folk want to just pay the energy bill and have a warm home, whatever the weather outside. They don't care to worry about lighting the wood stove on super cold days. They don't want to have to have a wood delivery separate from their energy bill, and be carting it around in boxes. They don't want to huddle into the room with the wood stove becaus…

There is no modern system that "just works" whatever the weather. We had an ice storm when I was growing up and lost power for 3 days. Wood stove worked great as a backup, not much else would have.

For a backup wouldn't a gas baseboard heater or room heater work? I know they are not in favor due to fire and CO issues, but for an emergency backup they worked well enough for our parents and grandparents.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#159

Post by thehappypm »

timbit42 wrote: post #138
thehappypm wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ground source is losing the war. Too expensive to install, and if something goes wrong, start digging. Air source is getting better and better all the time.

In parts of Canada, such as Alberta, where it goes to -40C, anyone buying an air source heat pump is nuts. Ground source is the only viable heat pump option, in spite of its much higher cost. I guess they'll be stuck on natural gas until the climate rises some more.

Air source + natural gas for when it’s that cold is still cheaper than ground source.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#160

Post by beamgirl »

sbradford26 wrote: post #152
zdragnar wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, pretty much anything would save money over heating oil, including just burning money.

I know it is sarcastic but there is a website where you can calculate how much it would cost to heat with dollar bills. https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating

Coalpail is a really handy site. They've got all the hookups on the cheap coal distributors. The guy I buy from isn't listed, you just call him and ask for an appointment to meet him at his coal shed.
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