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“How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

seymourhersh.substack.com

891–900 of 1001 posts

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#891

The fact that Germany, Sweden, and Denmark, the countries investigating the explosions, are refusing to point any fingers at Russia suggests to me that they have serious reasons to believe that it may have been an ally nation that destroyed the pipeline. Pointing the finger at the USA, even if they had very concrete evidence, would be a massive diplomatic problem - so it stands to reason that we would not hear about…

According to the Russians it was the Ukrainians helped by the Brits https://youtu.be/STqoHnV5cDM?t=69

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#892
post #34

All: Whether he is right or not or one likes him or not, Hersh reporting on this counts as significant new information ( https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... ), so I've turned off the flags on this submission. If you're going to comment in this thread, please make sure you're up on the site guidlelines ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ) and note this one: " Comments should…

I find it so bizarre that there’s bonafide HN users who so keenly want to protect a narrative that they demand an interesting article with detailed claims be removed, rather than just accepting that many people will want to read it make up their own mind. Who are these people? (rhetorical question)

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#893
post #34

All: Whether he is right or not or one likes him or not, Hersh reporting on this counts as significant new information ( https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... ), so I've turned off the flags on this submission. If you're going to comment in this thread, please make sure you're up on the site guidlelines ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ) and note this one: " Comments should…

If anyone else had written this, would it be significant? Wouldn't it just be written off as a conspiracy theory that provides little to no evidence for its claims? If the only thing that gets this on HN is Seymour Hersh's reputation (which has lately become somewhat questionable) then you might want to reconsider. Plus, the quality of the comments has not been very good so far.

[deleted]

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#894

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can claim that you destroyed the pipeline and it would be equally as valid at this point. An established reputation is the difference between those claims. You making a claim without evidence is just that. Hersh making a claim without sharing his evidence is something different. That isn’t to say we don’t need evidence, but there’s a better reason to believe him than you, given the context of the situation. > His…

> Maybe time will tell. This article shouldn't be allowed here until that time. Reputation is not evidence.

good point, we gotta keep discussion of this topic hidden, so people don't get any weird ideas about questioning our blessed three letter agencies or the holy MIC.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#895

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not very deep. You can buy a tethered underwater ROV rated for 300ft OTS for a few thousands of dollars. Not to mention a camera and an actuator on an anchor. Practically anybody could have done it. Even non-state actors. Hardest part would be getting the explosives in sufficient quantity.

You would leave debris by doing that. Doing it in a way that doesn't leave evidence is difficult.

What if you use it to just plant the explosives, then have it leave before detonating?

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#896

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, instead of blog posts Hersh should write spy thrillers in tje tradition of the early Tom Clancy works. I would even pay for those, I like the setting and the narrative Hersh oresented in this blog, and the writing, are compelling and good. For a fictional book, not for journalism.

such an odd thing how so many people are likening to tom clancy. are these people comparing notes?

not only on hackernews, also on reddit and twitter. all following a similar script.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#897

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think he’s calling him a crank, anymore than he’s talking about a specific broken clock being right twice a day. It’s just hypothetical to demonstrate a point. If he were a crank journalist, being accidentally right twice could still make him a journalistic legend. Therefore, we can’t trust simply because he’s famous, because a broken clock is right twice a day.

This piece posits a “crank theory” of Seymour Hersh: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/05/seymour-hershs-u...

Of course, it's difficult to tell whether articles like that were written because Hersh is wrong, or because he is right.

There are plenty of powerful people trying to discredit reporters who tell who tell the truth, so we should also be skeptical of attacks on Hersh.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#898
post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the rub, SOCOM via JSOC is the only command that POTUS has any sway over (Thanks Obama.). The more you read the less plausible any of this is. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joint_Special_Ope... . > Operations so secret you can't tell 8 Congressional leaders (as required by law) but you can tell Norway, Denmark, and Sweden about do not sound like a thing. Exactly!

The President sets the strategy for all of the combatant commands through the National Security Strategy and ultimately every military action has a line drawn to the President through the SecDef. Saying POTUS doesn't have away over the other COCOMs is misleading at best. (To be clear, this article is still bs, having "Navy only" divers doesn't make any sense in the way operations are done in the US military.)

What I'm trying to illustrate is that POTUS isn't sitting in on OPORDs, The Joint Chiefs of Staff advise the president on all military matters, the president goes through them, the Secretary of Defense, etc.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#899

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that moment in the war, even Putin had a lot of strong motivations -- lock out the option of bringing Nord Stream back online and close to door on de-escalation. As a side-benefit, the possibility of driving a wedge into NATO. I also found https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34713402 interesting. Who knows.

Putin was already effectively doing that, by demanding payment in rubles and making weird terms. If Putin wanted to shut down Nordstream, he'd just stop sending gas. What was Europe going to do, sanction him more? I can see the US doing it as they've been vocal opponents to nordstream since its inception, I can see Ukraine wanting to do it although I doubt they'd have the resources, might also have been some other ro…

> If Putin wanted to shut down Nordstream, he'd just stop sending gas.

Putin's concern would be the home front.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#900
post #885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this instead a great argument for why the article should be discussed here rather than banned from discussion? It's a great comment, and exactly the sort of useful criticism of the article that might actually change people's minds. If the article is hidden by flagging, these points will never be raised, and everyone stays at their initial position. But by allowing discussion, this insightful information can be…

If people didn't just upvote things based on the headline due to confirmation bias, and if this[0] didn't exist, then sure. Flagging exists for a reason, doesn't it? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect

> Flagging exists for a reason, doesn't it?

Yes, but in my mind that reason is to call the moderator's attention to an article and force a conscious decision. It's not to automatically allow some tiny percentage of participants to decide what the majority are allowed to read. Probably most of the time, the flaggers are right, discussion would be unproductive, and the article should be removed.

But some of the time, some of the flaggers are ideologically driven to prevent discussion that will damage their ideology. The moderator's goal should be to distinguish these cases. Making it tricky, it's not always a binary whether an article is worthy of discussion or not. Sometimes a good discussion can be created if and only if the moderator has time to spare on guiding the discussion, and sometimes the same article is flagged for different reasons.

A good discussion on a bad article is a great outcome, and bad discussion on a good article is a poor outcome. The "illusory truth effect" is a danger, but failing to properly challenge a false narrative is a danger too. I feel like Dan usually does a good job of trying to weigh these factors, based on the amount of time he is willing to spend babysitting the thread to avoid the worst outcomes, and based on his intuition on what sort of discussion will result.

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