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“How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

seymourhersh.substack.com

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Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#751

Post by gmokki »

tlear wrote: post #450
oezi wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since it was established that the destruction was caused by explosives, what is your argument? The US is too competent to do such a bad job (17 hours apart and only 3 of 4 pipes destroyed)? Does this imply we have a rogue actor or insufficiently equipped one to blame? Who?

He is right that sonar buoy detonation thing sounds like absolute bullshit. Incredibly risky and 17 hours.. I mean you want to do this, send a submarine, it fires few torpedoes. No more pipeline. Fast, simple, reliable. Let's say I am a Ukranian patriot, with few million in the bank. I bet given few month I could put together a team of divers to plant some C4 with a simple timer and blow this thing to hell. Or Polish…

I immediately told my friends that it could have been the danish submarine guy who killed tournalist and was supposedly in prison, when actually an intelligence agency got him out to do this task. It was fun how far we could speculate this random fake story. It was at least as plausible as this story.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#752

Post by HillRat »

mmastrac wrote: post #97

It's a great story, but it's all unsourced and could be a decent Tom Clancy story at best. You could probably write a similar one with Russia or German agents as the key players and be just as convincing. The only anchor in reality appears to be Biden suggesting that they knew how to take it out which seems like a pretty weak place to build a large story. What I find particularly odd is that this entire thing appears…

And one should be skeptical of a single source who somehow knows the entire story, from White House deliberations to technical details; all the more so when it's a supposed secret squirrel story that allegedly was hidden from Congressional oversight on a technicality.

The fact is, Hersh has gotten deeper and deeper into the conspiracy-theory weeds over the past few decades, with his most recent work tending towards outright disinformation -- from suggesting al-Qa'ida wasn't behind the 9/11 attacks, to whitewashing Syrian chemical attacks (and Ted Postol makes a cameo appearance in this piece as well), to denying Russian involvement in the Skripal poisoning, to being one of the motive forces behind the Seth Rich conspiracy theories. Increasingly it seems that he doesn't even care about the credibility of his "sources."

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#753

Post by somat »

ravi-delia wrote: post #733
AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it includes direct quotes from that person in the last paragraphs. It was clearly someone Hersh spoke to directly. While I am extraordinarily distrustful of news reports using anonymous sources you do have to consider the author here. Ultimately we are deciding if we trust him and, for me personally, he lends a lot of credibility. The other side of this is, duh, of course America blew up the pipeline. I said at t…

When it happened it was clear that the US, Russia, and Poland were likely the only suspects, except they're all really weird! The US absolutely has not made return on investment, which was obviously going to happen because shipping it over is much more expensive than the pipeline, and in the meantime Biden has to deal with increased gas prices. His incentives go the other way on this. But why the fuck would Russia do…

Ukraine? I am not sure if they have the means, but they have the motive, the nord stream pipelines bypass the Ukraine pipeline.

My knowledge on this is very, very sketchy, but my understanding is the there is still a large amount of Russian gas transiting the Ukraine pipelines, Europe needs the gas so they buy it, Ukraine needs the transit money to defend against Russia so they keep the operation running. and Russia needs the gas money to attack Ukraine so they keep the operation running.

Honestly if true it is one of the weirdest situations I have ever heard about in the middle of a war.

I deliberately used an RT link because it is probably full of Russian propaganda and yet says basically the same thing as other articles. I originally learned about it via the Perun youtube channel(the best place to start if you want actual information not propaganda) but am unable to find the episode where it is mentioned.

https://www.rt.com/business/570805-russia-ukraine-eu-gas-tra...

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#754

Post by fshbbdssbbgdd »

netsharc wrote: post #560
peanuty1 wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are any middle eastern militaries competent enough to blow up the Nord Strom pipeline and cover their tracks?

Prince Choppy Choppy can't even get rid of 1 guy without the whole world noticing. But to clutch my tinfoil hat, if Saudi Arabia really did want to do this, Prince Choppy Choppy could've told Biden "We're doing this, I know you can see us, but be quiet and you'll get your cheap oil, OK?". Although if Biden took part in such a conspiracy, someone in one of the American intelligence agencies would've probably leaked it…

If SA made a deal like this with Biden, they immediately broke it by having OPEC cut production before the midterm elections.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#755

Post by mandevil »

lambdasquirrel wrote: post #707
thwayunion wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only anchor in reality appears to be Biden suggesting that they knew how to take it out which seems like a pretty weak place to build a large story. I'd bet my last dollar that at least four nations had "blow up Nord Stream to force continued conflict" contingency plans. Who did it? Germany, Russia, USA, Ukraine, or a curve ball from the one of the Nordic or Baltic states? We'll probably never know, and none of…

No man. This was not in the Russians’ geopolitical interests. And even if Germany wanted to divest itself of Russian gas, they would not have done so, in this way. This was leaked at the time that it is now to send a message to the Germans.

I would be very very careful with your analysis of what is and is not "in the Russians' geopolitical interests." Almost every analysis based on "what was in the Russians' geopolitical interests" ended up concluding that Putin was not going to invade the Ukraine, because doing so was transparently a terrible idea[1]. And he did it anyway, because his calculations of what was in the Russians geopolitical interests were done differently. So before you opine on what the Russians might or might not have done based purely on your calculations of what is in the Russians interests, you need to show that your calculations are similar to Putin's in other ways. Without that, one should be really really skeptical that anyone is doing their calculations of what is in Russia's geopolitical interests the same as Putin.

[1]: Whereas analysis based on what Russia was actually doing was largely correct before the war. This is why there was such a large chasm between what the US was saying then- based on their ability to hack Kadryov's phones and hear what was being said at those levels, along with their satellites to observe what the actual Russian army was doing- and what the French and Germans were saying based largely on 'that would be a dumb thing for Putin to do'.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#756

Post by dralley »

ghostwriter wrote: post #444
letrowekwel wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an EU citizen living next to Russia I can assure you, I'm DELIGHTED that people can no longer buy gas from a mass murderer like Putin. Anyone who buys gas from Russia is essentially supporting genocide of Ukrainian civilians, if suffering is what we're talking about. Besides, things are going on pretty okay. Electricity prices are stabilizing and Europe will eventually become greener as well. No matter who did it,…

> Anyone who buys gas from Russia is essentially supporting genocide of Ukrainian civilians, if suffering is what we're talking about. Weekly snapshot: Russian fossil fuel exports 16 to 22 January 2023: * The week of 16 to 22 January 2023, the EU was the largest importer of Russian fossil fuels. * The EU imported pipeline gas, oil products and LNG, as well as crude oil via pipeline or rail. * The top five EU importer…

And yet, the situation has drastically changed from one year ago. Russian gas went from being 50% of EU gas imports to 10%.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/eu-gas-suppl...

https://www.bbc.com/news/58888451

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#757

Post by SeanLuke »

thwayunion wrote: post #150
mmastrac wrote: post #97

It's a great story, but it's all unsourced and could be a decent Tom Clancy story at best. You could probably write a similar one with Russia or German agents as the key players and be just as convincing. The only anchor in reality appears to be Biden suggesting that they knew how to take it out which seems like a pretty weak place to build a large story. What I find particularly odd is that this entire thing appears…

> The only anchor in reality appears to be Biden suggesting that they knew how to take it out which seems like a pretty weak place to build a large story. I'd bet my last dollar that at least four nations had "blow up Nord Stream to force continued conflict" contingency plans. Who did it? Germany, Russia, USA, Ukraine, or a curve ball from the one of the Nordic or Baltic states? We'll probably never know, and none of…

Just how many submarines does Ukraine have right now?

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#758

Post by ErikVandeWater »

abracadaniel wrote: post #411
ttctciyf wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what Biden was referring to when he stated > "If Russia invades, that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine again, then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it." > When asked how, the president says, "I promise you, we will be able do that." (C-SPAN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8 )

Considering the context was about sanctions, and no one at the time thought he was suggesting he would blow it up, then it’s not reasonable to try to retroactively change the context.

He didn't say no gas would flow. He said the pipeline would no longer exist. Also, why would he be hesitant to use the word "sanctions?" Sanctions would be a totally reasonable explanation. What he said clearly implied the pipeline would be forcefully made inoperative.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#759

Post by threeseed »

dang wrote: post #643
hoffs wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try reading it instead of skimming

I read the first half and looked over the second half. Do you think I missed something that would change the moderation call here? If so, what?

a) You didn't read the article.

b) You chose to override the will of this community who largely did read the article.

Re: “How America took out the Nord Stream pipeline”

#760

Post by dralley »

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #550
oezi wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of LNG gas remains insignificant so far. Germany also hasn't signed any significant contract with the US but rather with Qatar. To give you one credible motive for Russian involvement: Russia cut off Europe of Gas supplies to get leverage on the Ukraine conflict, but this largely failed as European countries pooled their gas reserves and vowed to move away from Russian gas. As Russia could see that this ma…

It was a hostage situation. "You want to quit our gas? See how you're going to fare when winter comes and you can't fill your storage in time." In September it was already clear that a weak polar vortex would make for a frosty winter in the northern hemisphere. It was just luck (for Europe) that it hit North America and not Europe. During summer in Germany every week more people were drumming up (literally) demands t…

God supports Ukraine, apparently: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fl8IHLWXEAENTO6?format=jpg&name=...
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