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Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end?

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Re: Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end?

#251
post #244

I think that ChatGPT3 does not matter a lot. But a lot of people fed up with Google and will be glad to try something different. It's like when Apple came and eat 15-20% of market of notebooks. Dominance of Microsoft still not ended. Actually I suspect that Yandex search is better - I like how they preview answers for technical questions. Picture search - seems that Google is the worst. Maybe it's time to start searc…

> a lot of people fed up with Google and will be glad to try something different.

I had to use DuckDuckGo to locate some mailing list threads (about an apache jira issue) which were clearly on Google at least a few years ago.

So "hdfs forward seek" in Google returns nothing, but DDG does.

If Google isn't repurposing all its search compute to something else secret, I can't explain why it suddenly got all dumb and forgetful of the 2015s internet.

Re: Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end?

#252
I asked ChatGPT that if it can replace Google search engine. It says :

"As an AI language model, I do not have opinions or personal thoughts. However, it is unlikely that chatbots like ChatGPT will replace traditional search engines like Google in the near future. While chatbots like me can provide quick answers to specific questions and engage in conversational interactions, they still have limitations and are not as comprehensive or efficient as search engines like Google. Google and other search engines have access to vast amounts of information and use complex algorithms to deliver relevant and accurate results.

That being said, chatbots like me can complement traditional search engines by providing an alternative, more conversational interface for accessing information. Additionally, advances in natural language processing and AI technology may lead to chatbots becoming more sophisticated and capable of handling more complex tasks in the future."

Re: Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end?

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm gonna need to see some citation on how Typescript and VSCode improved life for humanity. Break out some of them facts you're talking about.

I specify "my life", not other's life, and it's a fact. Why bother then (i'm curious)?

Um no...

> At least it improved human life in serious ways (Typescript, VSCode,...).

Re: Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end?

#254

I don't understand this hype and I feel like I'm looking at different products than everyone else is. There are very few complaints I have about Google that I think this technology helps solve, and for most of my complaints, getting summaries of searches makes the situation worse, not better. To be completely clear: even if the AI was perfect , I don't know that I want even an actual human being to sit down and summa…

You know what it reminds me a lot of? CPedia. It’s basically the same concept, though, from the sound of it, much more capably executed. I do see LLMs as potentially more useful for “fanciful” queries, like “what can I make with kale, tomatoes, and mushrooms?”

Just for clarification, do you mean the actual encyclopedia, or Wikipedia?

I think that encyclopedias are cool, but I also feel like the Internet was hopefully going to be a slightly better version of that and that it's a little frustrating to be going in the opposite direction. I'm not sure how to articulate that other than that encyclopedias are in some ways a compromise around the fact that we very often don't have good search, so we accept human beings trying to pre-aggregate data for us with the hope that they are better than Google is at aggregating that data.

And I think Wikipedia is valuable not so much because of the summaries, and more because it's obsessively curated and has (or attempts to have) a very specific, predictable set of rules that it (tries) to adhere to about sources and coverage. The text-portion of Wikipedia isn't really the part that I think is most impressive about it. If GPT-3 was being used to aggressively curate search results and remove low-quality content, then yeah, that would be potentially interesting (although I'm not sure how well it could handle that task).

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> what can I make with kale, tomatoes, and mushrooms?

I sort of see it, it's one of the more... it's fine. It wouldn't be a strict downgrade over existing search, maybe it would save time in some situations. But if I'm being completely honest, what I want as an answer to that question isn't a paragraph of text explaining multiple recipes, it's a bullet-pointed list of recipes with links to the original sites they're listed on, so I can check to see if they're worth making.

Bing's results (to its credit) seem like they're sort of headed in that direction, which, nice. Yeah, I could use that. But a bullet-pointed list of recipes is also... search results. So how much time and effort have we put into reinventing a cleaner search interface where at best it solves the same problems that search already solved, and where we in the meanwhile haven't made any progress on the really hard fundamental problem of "how do we get a good list of recipes to display in the first place and what does 'good' mean in that context?"

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To be less cynical, one way I could see this genuinely being useful would be completely behind the scenes in a non-user-facing role just as a way of applying "tags" to webpages or doing filtering. I would love to be able to search "is spinach poisonous for rats who are pets and just because I used the word 'poisonous' does not mean I want 2 pages of links about exterminators or getting rid of wild rats."

An LLM would be a great fit for that, because we've done such a garbage job of categorizing the web that it's very difficult to know which words to type to exclude "categories" of information from a search query. So maybe an LLM helps standardize that a bit? But then I want a normal page of search results. I don't want to have a conversation with the LLM, I want the LLM's role to be exclusively "I think this webpage should be additionally included/excluded in your query. I think this webpage is about extermination even if it doesn't use that specific word."

If Bing's service ends up being able to do that kind of thing well, then yeah, that's useful. I'm a little skeptical they can, because... gestures to the current quality of search results, but maybe their integration with GPT gives them way more capabilities and ratchets up their quality.

But similar to above, it feels a little bit like reinventing the wheel. I can refine GPT queries during a conversation, great. Could I have that feature for regular search? Why do I need to do it as part of a conversation? That seems like a good thing tied to a bad UX (although again, I might be atypical in thinking that natural language conversations are often bad UX).

And I do want to couch that by saying that maybe Bing will surprise me and it will have easy options to do that kind of thing. I'm just not currently seeing it presented in a way that looks useful.

Re: Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end?

#255
post #94
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone else said, the problem is ChatGPT lies straight to your face, whereas at least Google's answers are based on structured data by someone. It's traceable, whereas I would not trust ChatGPT ever to tell me the correct temperature to cook a steak.

"The new Bing also cites all its sources". That's a quote from the microsoft announcement. https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2023/02/07/reinventing-sear...

If it's citing all it's sources, it's not ChatGPT, it's a natural language interface around search, which Google has been doing for years including with voice...

Re: Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end?

#256
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not much about Microsoft. At least it improved human life in serious ways (Typescript, VSCode,...). What did Google bring to my life ? Nothing except for spam stuffs from Ad, Email,... You're responsible for your data, not Google, not Microsoft.

Uh... Maps? Open, Permissive phone OS compared to the alternative? Greatest entertainment/information system, especially one that's democraticsed producing media? In terms dev-related stuff, TensorFlow - literally something that's made today's ML possible, Kubernetes, BigTable, MapReduce, and yknow, that good old thing called Chrome.. I understand hating on Google. They're not that great, but none of the FAANG are "g…

I don't use Phone, nor Maps, nor Youtube, nor Kubernetes, all the things you listed.

They're helpful to you, not me.

Re: Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end?

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what it reminds me a lot of? CPedia. It’s basically the same concept, though, from the sound of it, much more capably executed. I do see LLMs as potentially more useful for “fanciful” queries, like “what can I make with kale, tomatoes, and mushrooms?”

Just for clarification, do you mean the actual encyclopedia, or Wikipedia? I think that encyclopedias are cool, but I also feel like the Internet was hopefully going to be a slightly better version of that and that it's a little frustrating to be going in the opposite direction. I'm not sure how to articulate that other than that encyclopedias are in some ways a compromise around the fact that we very often don't hav…

CPedia was an attempted pivot by doomed search startup Cuil that would more or less build a Wikipedia-like page out of random text on the Web about whatever you searched for. This article describes it a bit. https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2010/06/09/cpedia-a-spam-blo...

Re: Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end?

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I specify "my life", not other's life, and it's a fact. Why bother then (i'm curious)?

Um no... > At least it improved human life in serious ways (Typescript, VSCode,...).

You mean "fast bullshit ads" ? I mean "meaningful search results". They're different.

Re: Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end?

#259

It's been a while since they stopped innovating. Although Google, Maps, Youtube are of daily use they are monetized exclusively by advertising which is annoying and hated by many. It has been many years since Google has launched an innovative new product. I don't think ChatGPT will gain daily traction after this hype. Anyway we could say that MSFT and AMZN have demostrated more power to innovate with different busine…

Google stopped being innovative the second their "20% Time" got gutted:

> Employees were encouraged to spend up to twenty-percent of their paid work time pursuing personal projects. The objective of the program was to inspire innovation in participating employees and ultimately increase company potential. For Google's part, Gmail and AdSense both arose out of side projects. In 2013, Google discontinued 20 percent time.

What has Google released since 2013[0]? Stadia?

Then you tack on that Google Search as of today is basically unusable/broken with people needing to append site:, double-quoting everything, or enabling verbatim search to get high quality results. Heck, on top of that, I also have a uBlock configuration that removes 280 domains from Google Results because they're all auto-generated spam of Stackoverflow answers.

There is something deeply wrong with the culture inside Google.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google#2012_onward

Re: Is Google’s 20-year search dominance about to end?

#260

It's been a while since they stopped innovating. Although Google, Maps, Youtube are of daily use they are monetized exclusively by advertising which is annoying and hated by many. It has been many years since Google has launched an innovative new product. I don't think ChatGPT will gain daily traction after this hype. Anyway we could say that MSFT and AMZN have demostrated more power to innovate with different busine…

Ads aside, the UI of Youtube and Maps is atrocious. There is so much room for improvement here, but it will never happen from Google. It's just not in their DNA. Unfortunately, they have such a huge moat here I doubt we'll see anything better for a long time.

Actually Youtube is not so bad.

Youtube Music is really .. strange.

It looks wrong/outdated everywhere.

Generated playlists (recomendations) are always (for days/weeks) the same. Not a bit randomization. It feels like they were approved by party commitete for years.

I don't understand why they decided social network in music service.

Ah hell. CUE-lists are still too novice technology for them.

I still think that last.fm 15 years ago was the best music service.

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