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Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

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Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#251

You know, whatever the merits (and it sounds as if there were very few) of Google's presentation (or Pinchai's recent non-statement) might be, I would have expected the commentariat here at HN to display way more skepticism about language models as a replacement for search. If there's a crowd anywhere in the world large enough to leave 200+ comments on a post like this, you'd think thatg the one at HN would understan…

> And yet when I read the comments, I see this sort of calm acceptance that of course this technology is going to take over search. Why is everyone so confident?

It is difficult to get a man to critically evaluate something if his future salary depends upon his unquestioning acceptance of it.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#252
post #245

You know, whatever the merits (and it sounds as if there were very few) of Google's presentation (or Pinchai's recent non-statement) might be, I would have expected the commentariat here at HN to display way more skepticism about language models as a replacement for search. If there's a crowd anywhere in the world large enough to leave 200+ comments on a post like this, you'd think thatg the one at HN would understan…

I'd like to have more discussion about the attribution problem, specifically. We now have a couple of the players saying they're working on, or having demos. But from what I can see, all of these don't _actually_ attribute the source. They're just able to find _a_ source that fits to the output, working backward from it. Often the attributed source fits, but is actually disagreeing with the original output in specifi…

> Is there any indication real attribution is coming?

I wouldn't hold my breath. Showing attributions allows people to reverse engineer how the prompt was made, and identifies weaknesses in the model. Bad for business!

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#253
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope Google is not pulling a Blackberry moment. Why? (Genuine question). Google is just some corporation, and one that’s been drifting for the last 15 years or more (since Schmidt left). They are not even a good actor, yet (and I don’t blame them for this) have sucked a lot of air out of the ecosystem. Creative destruction is one of the key values (-> leads to benefits) of capitalism, and with US & EU antitrust a…

> Why? (Genuine question). Because in an ideal situation (as indicated with your last sentence) you'd have a bunch of active competitors yielding up better and better products. Not one active competitor with the singular new thing and a couple of reactive competitors that can't get things right. Search is also supporting a lot of relatively free innovation at Alphabet. If ChatGPT sinks that innovation (or at least ma…

There's a lot of work going on in transformers, generative models, and all sorts of other things in addition to LLVMs. I'm not too worried at this point of OpenAI or openai+microsoft having any sort of monopoly.

It appears that neither does openAI believe that as they were happy to sell 50% of their company in addition to all the ownership they'd already given away. That was clear harvesting.

> Search is also supporting a lot of relatively free innovation at Alphabet.

Is it, really? Hard for me to come up with much of a meaningful list, even if you don't try to compare their history with outliers like PARC or Bell Labs. They are clearly spending but I don't see a lot of doing. They seem to have ignored Hamming's advice.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#254
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that end-users really care about having a GPT-written paragraph accompanying their search results. For 90% of my searches I don't want any search results. I want a definitive, authoritative answer to a question. In the olden days of the web I had to figure out what to search to give me a website that would give me that answer as the first result, and in the mid-90s that was really hard because search was…

> Over the next 20 years the war between Google and SEO spammers meant finding things got a bit harder. Along with that Google's proliferation of adverts on their search result pages meant it actually became harder to even find the website link I wanted in the page itself. Yes, SEO spam has largely made the search experience a lot worse and ripe for change. But ChatGPT crawls these terrible links too! Many of the lin…

I don't think spam is an unsolvable problem. I think Google didn't want to solve it. I could find whole networks of spam sites in minutes, they could too. But the web is larger than what can be fixed manually.

They should make an AI bot to search through the search box and decide if the results are crap, and train it with human preferences. Or set the bot to find difficult to find answers and see how many it finds and how high they are ranked.

Probably working in search at Google was a dead end career, the search department wasn't sexy anymore and didn't have green field projects. Maybe they were just afraid to change anything as long as it makes money for them. So the good people left and they have been coasting for a decade.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Apple, who shares more user data with the CCP than most American tech companies: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce... All FAANG are suspect these days

> Apple, who shares more user data with the CCP than most American tech companies Whether intentionally or not, your comment is very misleading due to omitting the fact that it only applies to chinese customers of Apple in China (which the linked article mentions in the very beginning). Apple doesn't share user data of people outside of China with the CCP. Also, this is literally a legal requirement to be able to ope…

We have no idea what Apple and Google share unofficially. Remember the Apple China bribery scandal? No? Of course not, it was barely a blip in the news.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#257
post #252
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to have more discussion about the attribution problem, specifically. We now have a couple of the players saying they're working on, or having demos. But from what I can see, all of these don't _actually_ attribute the source. They're just able to find _a_ source that fits to the output, working backward from it. Often the attributed source fits, but is actually disagreeing with the original output in specifi…

> Is there any indication real attribution is coming? I wouldn't hold my breath. Showing attributions allows people to reverse engineer how the prompt was made, and identifies weaknesses in the model. Bad for business!

I feel like all of the interesting stuff when it comes to search+LLM is in real hybridization that's still a few steps out from what's happening right now in terms of productization.

For example:

(a) Addressing the recency problem by making a model generate instructions to a browser as output token stream, so it can, well, Google for you and incorporate latest info into output by adding it to the "internal prompt".

(b) Doing something similar where you teach models how to drive computational engines to make actual, computed facts and figures, not guess them from statistics over training data.

(c) Maybe running a traditional search and then using LLMs to summarize over them.

etc. etc.

It feels increasingly clear that "complete prompt from a stale training data set" is a neat trick but doesn't solve any particular problem well enough. This also seems intuitively true: If you ask your friend a difficult question, you often don't expect them to be able to answer it on the spot. You probably expect them to have relevant experience and a rough understanding of the topics and the tools to look up or figure out the rest. Similarly, it feels intuitively wrong to expect a LLM to come ready-made with all knowledge baked in. It feels more like we'd want something with the working knowledge/method to plan and execute fact discovery and computation.

It's fun to play around a bit with ChatGPT yourself and try to approximate what a more complex pipeline might be. For example, instead of asking it to answer a question, ask it to re-state the question or make a list of questions prompted by the original question, then let it "contemplate" those or propose a method for how to go after answering them, etc. It runs aground pretty often, but sometimes the results take you a lot further than the direct approach.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#258

I was watching... meh all the time and then suddenly it goes blank and disappears. Like, wtf Google. After yesterday's Microsoft presentation, this was such an underwhelming event. And it gets real tiring on how much Google tries to create an idea on how advanced their AI is.. (and it might be) but the fact is, nobody can access it or try it. So until we actually are able to put our hands on something, I'm calling va…

I think this is the big take away from all this ChatGPT vs. Google. Non-tech people could experiment first hand how scaringly powerful a well crafted AI can be.

I can totally see why ML researchers that were expecting end-user products being notebook like and targeting data engineers were took off guard by the sudden discovery of the how a chat interface is powerful and usable by anyone.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#259
post #240
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A case I had right now. Just try to google this: When migrating from Swagger 2 ApiOperation annotation to OpenAPI 3.0 Operation by what attribute is nickname replaced? And then ask ChatGPT ... Google is done

and how did you verify that the ChatGPT answer was correct?

good question. Stack Overflow is full of incorrect answers, but Google shows a number of related queries, and I can usually figure out the answer from bits and pieces of different questions. Can an AI?

This becomes especially relevant if it's parsing through a bunch of technical documentation that is out of date. There are numerous developer-centric websites that rank high on search, but simply scrape and clone information from legitimate websites. These are the ones most likely to carry outdated information.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#260
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope Google is not pulling a Blackberry moment. Why? (Genuine question). Google is just some corporation, and one that’s been drifting for the last 15 years or more (since Schmidt left). They are not even a good actor, yet (and I don’t blame them for this) have sucked a lot of air out of the ecosystem. Creative destruction is one of the key values (-> leads to benefits) of capitalism, and with US & EU antitrust a…

>Why? (Genuine question). Because I was there to witness the disintegration of a company and the losses it created? Instead of layoffs, you have entire departments/factory shuttering. When Nortel shut down, many engineers interviewed for BB (same province). I still remember how they looked when we told them we won't proceed with the hiring.

If Google were to collapse they'd be releasing a lot of skilled people into a hot job market. This isn't a case of shutting the "company town" heavy industry employer suddenly cutting a lot of blue collar people (many equally highly skilled but for jobs that require more infrastructure).

I understand the Nortel case (I remember those days), but the job scene in Ontario was quite different 20 years ago.

And that's certainly no reason to try to prop up a company that's basically a drag on the industry.

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