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Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

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Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#341

Post by coffeeblack »

mc32 wrote: post #140
coffeeblack wrote: post #67

Just like in China with the anti-lockdown protests. The people who are recognisable on social media posts from the protests have all been arrested by now. They waited just long enough to make people forget about it before they picked them up one by one.

Not to defend China, as the scale and the penalties are not comparable, however, some western governments also took a relatively hard stance against some anti-lockdown protests and we're learning government was involved in muting dissenting opinions on social media which in some western countries crosses the line into censorship. The government had embeds in social media orgs. Just imagine if during the Johnson or Ni…

Sadly, many Western governments got “inspired” by the CCP, I agree. Though what happened in China was on a completely different level.

But I hope that in the coming years, western societies will investigate government actions during the Covid craze. That’s the advantage of Democratic societies, there is at least a chance that sh*t gets cleaned up.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#342

Post by [deleted] »

gwright wrote: post #294
saiya-jin wrote: post #57

This is playbook of scumbag tyrants, doesn't matter if Putin, Erdogan or similar. I for sure hope EU politicians are taking a note too, there are 2 existential threats to democratic free Europe long term - Russia and Turkey. Both have same ambitions, are on completely opposite side of all crucial values free world holds dear. Luckily their competence severely lags behind their ambitions, to think Turkey was for some…

> This is playbook of scumbag tyrants, doesn't matter if Putin, Erdogan or similar. I think you are being generous. The use of force is certainly a more extreme manifestation of the problem, but framing speech that you disagree with as "disinformation", "misinformation", "harmful", "hateful", "dangerous", "offensive", and so on is a technique used by petty tyrants and scumbag tyrants alike.

[deleted]

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#343

Post by mc32 »

sammalloy wrote: post #332
mc32 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to defend China, as the scale and the penalties are not comparable, however, some western governments also took a relatively hard stance against some anti-lockdown protests and we're learning government was involved in muting dissenting opinions on social media which in some western countries crosses the line into censorship. The government had embeds in social media orgs. Just imagine if during the Johnson or Ni…

> Just imagine if during the Johnson or Nixon admins the gov/FBI/etc had actual "embeds" in the WaShPo/NYT, etc. That’s pretty much what journalist Carl Bernstein claimed in 1977, followed much later by historian Hugh Wilford in 2008.

My understanding is that in those days the press and gov were on the same "page" but it was more like when airlines hike prices or lower prices in response to a competitor rather than having actual embeds offering their opinion on what was received facts and what was "misinformation". If Johnson or Nixon has had that level of access and influence, I doubt the VN war protests or Watergate complex scandal would have been as large as they were.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#344

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

alphanullmeric wrote: post #317
michaelt wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost like whether or not they choose to support a policy depends not on what it does but instead on who it’s being done to. Well, or they have a more nuanced view than "censorship no" or "censorship yes" For example, I support laws preventing stores from selling 3 watt LED bulbs in packages claiming they're 5 watt LED bulbs; or selling generic LED bulbs in packages claiming they're Phillips bulbs. Even though the…

Your scenario is not equivalent. A buyer and seller shake on an implicit contract when a purchase is made, and enforcement of a contract you agreed to is not censorship. A more accurate comparison would be me posting a picture of a 3 watt bulb online, claiming it is a 5 watt bulb. I don’t believe that should be illegal, and you would if you were consistent.

You've missed the point. It's not desirable to have listings which contain false advertising; the remedy for that is to restrict false advertising, not make every buyer chase the seller in a contract dispute after the fact. That would be insanity.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#345

Post by egeozcan »

kibwen wrote: post #289
NotYourLawyer wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to bad speech is more speech. Not less.

This is a bit like saying "the darkness is bad, so the solution is light, and if the light ever becomes blinding, the solution is more light ". Speech is not the point, it's just a medium for useful information. More speech is only good to the extent that it proliferates useful information. If useless spam speech is used to overwhelm useful speech, then that undermines the whole point of the principle of free speech.…

People learn to wear sunglasses. Just stop trying to give them "the right amount of the right kind of light".

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#347

Post by dvt »

kibwen wrote: post #289
NotYourLawyer wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to bad speech is more speech. Not less.

This is a bit like saying "the darkness is bad, so the solution is light, and if the light ever becomes blinding, the solution is more light ". Speech is not the point, it's just a medium for useful information. More speech is only good to the extent that it proliferates useful information. If useless spam speech is used to overwhelm useful speech, then that undermines the whole point of the principle of free speech.…

> This is a bit like saying "the darkness is bad, so the solution is light, and if the light ever becomes blinding, the solution is more light"

Completely untenable analogy. Why people say is that the solution is more speech is due to the antecedent concept of the marketplace of ideas and that, by and large, ideas are sifted via free speech and the good ones last while the bad ones die. You cannot have this sorting process in a system that stifles free speech.

If you want to attack free speech absolutism, at least attack Mill's axioms, not some made-up poorly-formed straw man of an analogy.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#348

Post by photochemsyn »

buildsjets wrote: post #315
blackoil wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's your hill, add Turkey, India and Russia to the list. Brazil we'll know in few days.

I cannot think of any product that I have purchased in the past 50 years that was made in Turkey or India. I once bought a replacement carburetor for a woodchipper, and it was made in Russia, but that's all I've seen from there. These are not exactly manufacturing and exporting powerhouses, it's pretty trivial to avoid them if you want to, compared to China.

If you bought anything pharmaceutical in the last ten years, chances are quite high it was manufactured in India using raw materials from China, and then either the formulation was done in the USA or the packaging was done in the USA to avoid having to label the source:

> (2021) "Here we use previously non-publicly available data to describe levels and trends in the manufacturing locations of the most commonly used prescription pharmaceuticals, off-patent generic drugs, intended to be consumed by Americans. We find that the base ingredients required for the manufacturing of these prescription drugs are overwhelmingly and increasingly manufactured in non-domestic locations, specifically India and China."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8109232/

In turn, the raw materials going into the India pharmaceutical pipeline tend to come from China more than anywhere else:

> "Even as the nation clamoured for banning products and cancelling contracts emanating from China, it’s apparent that, at least in pharma, it may not quite work out as imports from China account for 80% of total raw materials for making medicines, also called APIs (active pharmaceutical ingredients)."

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/...

However, this doesn't get a lot of corporate media coverage, given that pharma is among the top advertisers.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#349

Post by anigbrowl »

geysersam wrote: post #260
Uehreka wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your “The solution to bad speech is more speech” and raise you a “A lie can spread around the world before the truth can get its pants on”. Call or fold?

Call. It's not about who's fastest, it's about who stays in the end. Despite us humans being a lying, cheating bunch, knowledge and access to education continues to grow all over the world. That's certainly not thanks to censorship!

Not so fast, pardner. The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.

You are making two mistakes here: the simplest one is thinking that the winner of the argument is whoever has the last word. This is very frequently not the case, as any troll could tell you. Often, the power move is to get opponents mad and then move on, leaving them impotently fuming about how terrible that person is.

You're also identifying with the larger group at the societal/species level, which is valid, but is also a way of ignoring problems in the here and now. It's like zooming out from a bloody battlefield to look at the earth in space. With an extraplanetary perspective, Earth looks so beautiful and peaceful...but that doesn't help a single person who is impacted by the bloody battle.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#350

Post by Laaas »

mrtksn wrote: post #257
poulpy123 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read report that Turkey bombarded part of Kurdish syria that suffered from the earthquake yesterday

I don't know about that but maybe you can donate to Syria, they were heavily affected by the quake too.

Isn't that against sanctions?
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