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Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

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121–130 of 176 posts

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a non-starter? Nuclear plants are low-carbon and extremely safe [1]. 100 km is a long way. There are millions of people in the USA living within 100 km of a nuclear plant. Showing people the numbers on nuclear isn't that hard. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy

It will never be built for political reasons.

Offer it cheap and the market will clear.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#122
post #46

There was a thread [0] on /r/Maine in the aftermath of the extreme cold snap last weekend, when outdoor temps dropped into the negative double digits, where people chimed in on how their heat pumps held up. By and large, they confirmed that the manufacturers' claims are correct -- they do keep working (albeit less efficiently) down to the rated temperatures and in some cases even below. The winning strategy, at least…

In addition to this, I think we should go back to doing things the hard way, the old-school way: adapt and adjust your lifestyle to temperature changes like our ancestors did. Let the temperature dictate your cooking: do the dishes that require oven use, that require you to have 3 stoves on at the same time (and crucially, avoid these dishes in the summer!). Go on a bulk in the winter time so that you are more resili…

There’s something brilliant about having a big pot of soup stock simmering down in the dead of winter. Not only are you heating the house, you’re also humidifying it with the steam from the pot.

The tricky one is canning. Harvest dates sometimes line up with heat waves and that’s either a sit outside with the windows open situation, or a suffer for your winter survival situation.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#123
post #116

I know heat pumps are all the rage on HN these days, but I looked into them for myself in Indiana, and they don't seem to make financial sense at all, unfortunately. My utility, NIPSCO, charges $0.25699/therm for gas. There are 29.3 kWh of energy in 1 therm of gas, and my furnace is 95% efficient, so this works out to an electric equivalent of $0.009/kWh. That's more than an order of magnitude cheaper than the electr…

Your natural gas price (if correct) is much lower than the national average, and even much lower than your regional average. Average natural gas prices in the US for Dec 22 were $1.67/therm while average electric prices were $.17/kWh. Here's a great chart, with regional values also: https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/data/averageenergyprices... . I think you are right though that much of the "hype" is based on avoid…

As far as economic advantage goes, keep in mind that carbon emission famously is an unpriced externality. Everyone's given up on trying to put carbon pricing into place to make the economics "naturally" work out, but in a world where heat pumps and methane gas have similar to-the-consumer pricing, the true cost of heat pumps is lower.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#124

I know heat pumps are all the rage on HN these days, but I looked into them for myself in Indiana, and they don't seem to make financial sense at all, unfortunately. My utility, NIPSCO, charges $0.25699/therm for gas. There are 29.3 kWh of energy in 1 therm of gas, and my furnace is 95% efficient, so this works out to an electric equivalent of $0.009/kWh. That's more than an order of magnitude cheaper than the electr…

You have very, very cheap gas. Suspiciously cheap. Are you sure you're factoring everything in? NIPSCO's rate pages show much higher rates: https://www.nipsco.com/bills-and-payments/billing-programs/c... In Michigan here, it's like $1/therm (doing the conversion from the Mcf they actually bill in). Multiply your gas numbers by four, divide your electric numbers by three (to reflect a COP of 3 -- that is 300% efficien…

Crying in NYC paying $1.85/therm, i.e. $0.063/kWh, for natural gas, and $0.231 / kWh for electricity.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#125

I worry about the 'futureproofness' of heat pumps. Specifically, heat pumps use more energy on cold days. They use a massive amount more energy on the coldest days. Today, if you use double the electricity, it costs double the money. Thats affordable as long as it happens rarely. But, with lots of people getting EV's and heat pumps, and the generation mix getting more wind and solar, I forsee energy companies forcing…

You can purchase a very cheap base load that's fixed price. Completely green too. No need for dynamic pricing.

http://news.hydroquebec.com/en/press-releases/1261/hydro-que...

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#126
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your ideas are good for today, however I question how accurate they are for "our ancestors." Most people in e.g. the colonial days didn't have an oven - they went to the town baker to use theirs when needed. They also didn't have three stoves and all the pots and utensils required to use them simultaneously

While three stoves was probably ahistorical for most homes, a fire which heats the home and is also used to cook (food in ceramic containers) was absolutely commonplace. In particular, a controlled cooking fire in the center of a single-room thatched-roof home was the template for much of Europe, Asia, and for some of the North American natives, albeit at different points in their history.

Franklin stoves sold like hotcakes too, didn’t they? As an improvement over the hearth and the pot arm, which were themselves improvements over the three stone fire (which is still used by an alarming number of humans today).

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#127
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't they just start working essentially as effective resistive heater below some temperature ? So theoretically just oversizing it a bit should've been enough for the once in 10 years cold snap event. Woodstove with some supplies probably cheaper than oversizing tho

No, at some point they’re worse than resistive.

I've heard some heat pumps have a resistive heater in them which is used if the heat pump's CoP goes below 1.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#128
post #75
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to this, I think we should go back to doing things the hard way, the old-school way: adapt and adjust your lifestyle to temperature changes like our ancestors did. Let the temperature dictate your cooking: do the dishes that require oven use, that require you to have 3 stoves on at the same time (and crucially, avoid these dishes in the summer!). Go on a bulk in the winter time so that you are more resili…

>Go on a bulk in the winter time so that you are more resilient to cold with that extra weight on you (and go on a cut in the summer). Do not do this: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/obr.12251 Just wear some clothes. I wear fleece-lined hoodie and sweatpants in the winter. There's also that crazy guy who recommends long underwear, but as a skier (with plenty of experience wearing it), you'll never co…

I reward myself for doing stuff outside in the cold with soup, hot beverages, occasionally baked goods.

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#129

I find all this fear mongering about heatpumps in the US currently to be a little odd, because they've been popular in some cold countries in Europe for some time. If there was going to be a problem, there would already have been a problem.

Does Europe have cold countries? According to some quick Googling, the average winter temperature in Norway is still warmer than in Iowa (a not-particularly-cold state). (FWIW I think heat pumps are interesting, I drive an electric car, etc--I'm not speaking from some reflexively anti-electrification ideological position)

From what I can see Des Moines[1] and Oslo[2] are fairly comparable, and here in Oslo it's quite common to have air to air heat pumps.

Mind you, Oslo is quite south in Norway, it's much colder further north.

[1]: https://www.weather.gov/wrh/climate?wfo=dmx (annual)

[2]: https://seklima.met.no/months/max(air_temperature P1M),mean(air_temperature P1M),min(air_temperature P1M)/recurring_period/SN18700/nb/2003-01-01T00:00:00+01:00;2023-01-31T23:59:59+01:00

Re: Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback

#130

I worry about the 'futureproofness' of heat pumps. Specifically, heat pumps use more energy on cold days. They use a massive amount more energy on the coldest days. Today, if you use double the electricity, it costs double the money. Thats affordable as long as it happens rarely. But, with lots of people getting EV's and heat pumps, and the generation mix getting more wind and solar, I forsee energy companies forcing…

Many parts of our grid are more efficient when it’s cold. The brownouts in heat waves are caused in part by equipment overheating. For instance power line sags causing discharges to ground. I don’t know the ratio but I wouldn’t be surprised if you can push 10% more power through a cold grid than a hot one.
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