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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#241

Post by trelane »

usrbinbash wrote: post #99
anders_p wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No one's that stupid" 99.9% of people are not like you. They barely even know the difference between Windows and Google. People who got online when smartphones entered the scene have a difficult time when I try to explain what "folders" and "files" are. I do a lot of tech support for family and friends. They NEVER enter settings or preferences for their OS or their browser. They're afraid they'll "break something".…

I wholeheartedly agree; locking down systems is a feature, not a bug. I would go even further and say it's not just so in the users minds, it is also so in the admins mind, whether that's a business setting where we have to make sure thousands of workers don't accidentially brick their PC (or worse: cause an infosec issue), or a family setting. Though I have to say, that lockdown-feature comes with a rather heavy pri…

Isn't this just admin vs a regular user account?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#242

Post by largepeepee »

shawn-butler wrote: post #229
largepeepee wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those curious. Just look at the front page of the app store, literal ad right there amongst numerous locations. Their ad revenue has been expanding since 2016, and despite them hiding exact ad revenue in their quarterly, Tim Cook has mentioned in the investor call that "advertising and analytics, apple services revenue set an all-time record of 20.8 billion in q4".

Selling advertising in their own app store is not selling user data to third parties. You are conflating lots of categories that maybe you don't quite understand. Not everything is a conspiracy.

Oh but I do understand.

The strange part would be your weird definition of what constitutes selling user data.

According to your definition, Google isn't selling data to third parties since they now own the entire vertical integration when they bought double click back in 2008.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#243

Post by joshjje »

izacus wrote: post #161
erik wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean Google will deliver a better browser than what currently iOS users have to the point that iOS users will decide to move away from the default No, I mean that Google will use their search monopoly, along with their dominant position across other product areas to undercut the market share of any competing browser. Any merit Chrome has is dwarfed by the strength of Google’s ability to push it on users. I have…

Please provide any proof that Google has a greater strength of pushing their browser to iOS users than Apple, the owner of the platform which sets Safari as default, sets Safari as default link handler, sets Safari icon on the preinstall and requires several steps, including creation of AppStore account, to even switch away. Please, provide ANY proof, that Google has this crazy amazing power against the company that…

It is an indisputable fact that if "the doors were opened" that at least some iOS users would be switching browsers and other apps. That is good for competition and innovation, yes, but Google does have a lot of power to nudge people toward doing what they want through the most widely used search engine and all of their other services.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#244

Post by forgotpwd16 »

geocar wrote: post #221
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

> Apple is now the worst offender in forcing you to use your computing the device only the way they want you to. This is wrong. Google is the worst offender; Apple is an under-appreciated hero. I have to use some web pages- for taxes and public services, for my banks and so on. Those pages don’t work in Firefox and the only reason they work in Safari is because people don’t have a choice on Apple devices. Of course t…

>Google is the worst offender

How the issue you're raising has anything to do with Google? Google hasn't forced those devs to not care about Firefox.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#245

Post by trelane »

unglaublich wrote: post #239
trelane wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is now the worst offender in forcing you to use your computing the device only the way they want you to. Is it your device if it obeys someone else?

All your belongings have to obey the legal requirements set by others. E.g. building code; electronic interference limits; road safety performance; emission limits; food safety standards... Yet they can still be yours.

I am not convinced that safety regulations enacted by elected bodies are the same as proprietary software offering its manufacturer against the user's wishes.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#246

Post by forgotpwd16 »

flohofwoe wrote: post #33
frizlab wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because of , not thanks to. Once again the EU meddle with things they should not. And once again I’m pissed off by their regulations (though this time at least it makes a bit more sense than the previous time…)

What's wrong with more choice and competition? I really don't understand the walled garden apologists. If Apple 'tears down the wall', users still have a choice not to install non-Apple software if they don't want to.

Going through comments really reads like a case of Stockholm syndrome.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#247

Post by jimbo9991 »

lovich wrote: post #38
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

I understand it, but I don't respect it.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#248

Post by flohofwoe »

philistine wrote: post #237
flohofwoe wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The browser turning into an operating system (or rather a separate meta-platform that provides a common wrapper over operating system services) has already happened a long time ago. And while many web APIs indeed 'suck', they're still roughly in the same ballpark as traditional OS APIs when it comes to legacy features, unfixable design warts and general 'pain of use' (e.g. it's not like native development is all rain…

The opposing opinion would be that changes of vital OS features has happened to all the operating systems. Users expect a new version of software to run on newer operating systems. The web has never deprecated anything close to vital. We're stuck, seemingly, with everything ever conceived.

I would argue that most users expect that their software continues to work on new operating system versions without being forced to upgrade (which is easy for free software, but less so if the upgrade costs money and the users are entirely happy with the feature set of their current version).

PS: also, looking at Windows specifically, new operating system API layers don't necessarily mean that they are an improvement over the older APIs.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#249

Post by unglaublich »

trelane wrote: post #245
unglaublich wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All your belongings have to obey the legal requirements set by others. E.g. building code; electronic interference limits; road safety performance; emission limits; food safety standards... Yet they can still be yours.

I am not convinced that safety regulations enacted by elected bodies are the same as proprietary software offering its manufacturer against the user's wishes.

They are not the same at all, so your statement is incorrect.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#250

Post by mike_hearn »

erik wrote: post #153
izacus wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean Google will deliver a better browser than what currently iOS users have to the point that iOS users will decide to move away from the default set in their OS... and Apple won't be competent enough to compete? Because that's the only scenario where that happens and it's plausible - the exact scenario we were in with IE6 where Microsoft refused to provide a better browser and keep up with then new and much bet…

> You mean Google will deliver a better browser than what currently iOS users have to the point that iOS users will decide to move away from the default No, I mean that Google will use their search monopoly, along with their dominant position across other product areas to undercut the market share of any competing browser. Any merit Chrome has is dwarfed by the strength of Google’s ability to push it on users. I have…

"I don’t like Apple’s approach. But I’m also concerned about the prospect of a Blink-only future."

It's the web's destiny anyway. Its design lacks modularity to such a huge degree that a monopoly open source implementation is inevitable. There's no deep reason that has to be bad, Blink is open source and can be forked. In some ways it's not really clear what benefit the duplication between WebKit, Blink and Gecko brings to the table nowadays, as they implement the same specs in essentially the same way.

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