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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#231

Post by forgotpwd16 »

lawgimenez wrote: post #89
kajecounterhack wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really a feature to not be allowed to use non-webkit Chrome on my iPhone, even if it might unlock superior features? Is it a feature that Google Fi can't work optimally on iPhone thanks to their anti-competitive restrictions? Is it a feature that I have to use Siri, which is way inferior to Google Assistant, when communicating in CarPlay? Is the planned obsolescence a feature too? My 12 year old Mac laptop is d…

For the average of users they don't really mind if they're using WebKit or whatever stack underneath. My family just wants to open Safari and browse, and they don't give a shit about any of Apple's business.

>For the average of users they don't really mind

That's usually because they never used or even know the existence of something better. Same thing was being said 15 years ago for IE. The average user was fine with it until they tried Chrome (or Firefox/Opera before).

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#232

Post by mike_hearn »

pas wrote: post #159
anders_p wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No one's that stupid" 99.9% of people are not like you. They barely even know the difference between Windows and Google. People who got online when smartphones entered the scene have a difficult time when I try to explain what "folders" and "files" are. I do a lot of tech support for family and friends. They NEVER enter settings or preferences for their OS or their browser. They're afraid they'll "break something".…

You are falling prey to your own model :) The important thing to notice is that the median user's mind is neutral about features like lockdown, security, side-loading, and everything else, because they don't think about features. They think about concrete interactions , like "playing candy crush", or "talking to grandma/grandkid", or "buying stocks", or "trying that app that my coworker showed me". And when they can'…

You're making statements about how people think in general, but most of the world isn't iPhone land.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#233

Post by joshjje »

lawgimenez wrote: post #89
kajecounterhack wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really a feature to not be allowed to use non-webkit Chrome on my iPhone, even if it might unlock superior features? Is it a feature that Google Fi can't work optimally on iPhone thanks to their anti-competitive restrictions? Is it a feature that I have to use Siri, which is way inferior to Google Assistant, when communicating in CarPlay? Is the planned obsolescence a feature too? My 12 year old Mac laptop is d…

For the average of users they don't really mind if they're using WebKit or whatever stack underneath. My family just wants to open Safari and browse, and they don't give a shit about any of Apple's business.

Right. They only care when it starts being noticeably slow/laggy, or causing other problems, or if a button/menu item they often use has changed positions or removed altogether. "I've been clicking this spot for years and it always works, now its completely unusable!".

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#234

Post by mike_hearn »

GeekyBear wrote: post #164
loup-vaillant wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

> please lock down my machine The restriction is against programs that can download and execute code from random places on the internet, and you only need to look at a family of Android malware that Google has been unable to keep out of the Play Store to see why. >Known as Joker, this family of malicious apps has been attacking Android users since late 2016 and more recently has become one of the most common Android…

Nothing stops you executing arbitrary code on iOS, you just have to use an interpreter to do so, and Joker is in fact running interpreted code (a dex file).

Bear in mind one reason you may hear less about malware on iOS is simply that security researchers aren't allowed to sell products for it and they are blocked by the infrastructure from examining apps like anyone else is anyway, so they have no incentive or ability to figure out what apps are actually doing. On Android you can get APKs from the Play Store more easily, and APKs from third party stores very easily, and you're allowed to sell security apps into that market, so they have both means and an incentive to go find malware for it. Apple just point blank refuses to allow their commercial existence unless it's by selling vulns to Apple itself.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#235

Post by trelane »

midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

> Apple is now the worst offender in forcing you to use your computing the device only the way they want you to.

Is it your device if it obeys someone else?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#236

Post by pas »

mike_hearn wrote: post #232
pas wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are falling prey to your own model :) The important thing to notice is that the median user's mind is neutral about features like lockdown, security, side-loading, and everything else, because they don't think about features. They think about concrete interactions , like "playing candy crush", or "talking to grandma/grandkid", or "buying stocks", or "trying that app that my coworker showed me". And when they can'…

You're making statements about how people think in general, but most of the world isn't iPhone land.

Most of it perfectly applies to the Android universe too.

And the US device market is still the trendsetter, which is basically Appleistan.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#237

Post by philistine »

flohofwoe wrote: post #105
BulgarianIdiot wrote: post #86

Browsers are doing well. I'm more worried about the fact the browser is turning into the entire operating system these days. Even the apps use the browser engine for a lot of functionality these days. It's like a parasite, the OS is being eaten inside out. I'd be fine with this, it's a typical disruption process. Except the browser stack is full of legacy features, is bloated, and I'd hate for this to be the de-facto…

The browser turning into an operating system (or rather a separate meta-platform that provides a common wrapper over operating system services) has already happened a long time ago. And while many web APIs indeed 'suck', they're still roughly in the same ballpark as traditional OS APIs when it comes to legacy features, unfixable design warts and general 'pain of use' (e.g. it's not like native development is all rain…

The opposing opinion would be that changes of vital OS features has happened to all the operating systems. Users expect a new version of software to run on newer operating systems. The web has never deprecated anything close to vital. We're stuck, seemingly, with everything ever conceived.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#238

Post by trelane »

actionfromafar wrote: post #224
vnrao wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree broadly with your point but the subtleties have to be kept in mind. The main difference between the Chrome/Windows and the current Apple situation is quite significant imo. Even though Microsoft tried their best to keep user share with IE like sneakily changing the defaults, installation of Chrome was always easy. Downloading and installation of Chrome was always an option and more importantly didn't require…

On Mac, I find Safari also uses less battery than either Chrome or Firefox. (I use Firefox anyway, because I like its features and I'm a zealot too, but if on battery without a charger nearby, I use Safari.)

Do they have secret APIs the rest of us plebes don't get?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#239

Post by unglaublich »

trelane wrote: post #235
midoridensha wrote: post #2

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

> Apple is now the worst offender in forcing you to use your computing the device only the way they want you to. Is it your device if it obeys someone else?

All your belongings have to obey the legal requirements set by others.

E.g. building code; electronic interference limits; road safety performance; emission limits; food safety standards...

Yet they can still be yours.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#240

Post by uni_baconcat »

With Apple's new policy, Google is going to bring Blink to iOS and so do Mozilla with Gecko. The only thing I wish is you'd better provide a well power management, I don't want a browser on my phone chew up battery like Chrome on the laptop.
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