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Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

economist.com

251–260 of 407 posts

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the exact thing I am talking about. It takes all of the real concerns that people who voted for Trump have and resorts to calling them Nazis and you post it as a witty response. I did not vote for Trump I very much dislike him on a personal and political level. I never at any time discounted the reasons that people did vote for him though because they are my fellow citizens and people that I am friends with a…

You voted for a straightforwardly fascist governor for obliquely fascist reasons and then tried to abdicate moral responsibility based on the actions of other people. Fear your fears about the future and your children; we all do. And if those fears lead you to endorse and support a white nationalist movement, own your actions. No one forced you to do that.

Going to just stick with the "You don't vote how I vote so you're a Nazi!" argument huh? Cool Cool.

Us jews are notorious Nazi's and white nationalists.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt, but I'm unaware of which right would fall under the category "Can't have DEI statements." If anything, government money tends to include more diversity entanglements, not fewer.

> I'm unaware of which right would fall under the category "Can't have DEI statements." The first amendment, as originally noted. This is most relevant at public universities, which effectively are the government.

By this logic, anything on any employment form for a government job would be compelled speech. This is so facially stupid, yet you are here arguing it with no shame.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#253
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clumsy for sure. Potentially dangerous in the future, I think. But I really really really need for people, like you, who are annoyed by it and whatnot to really see the bigger picture here. I have no problem turning the dial down on "DEI" as practiced if and only if we effectively address and recognize the ways in which these people actively do throw minorities under the bus in other ways; e.g. gerrymandering, r…

When forced to choose between the effects of Gerrymandering vs my kids being penalized for the rest of their lives for being white then I am forced to choose Gerrymandering every time and I hate that this is the choice I'm presented with. I'm not a fan of Desantis at all but I am even less of a fan of this woke (I hate using the term, it sounds like a caricature) movement. My kids happen to be white, heterosexual mal…

FWIW, I am a white, heterosexual male. I wrote a DEI statement that did not mention ethnicity, sexuality, or gender. I consistently got praise for my DEI statement in faculty interviews.

I am fairly confident I am one of the only straight white males in this comment section who has applied to faculty positions and received job offers, across a variety of institution types. I am almost certain I am the only one in this comment section who meets those criteria and isn't currently in academia (I truly have no horse in this race, except annoyance that the discussion is so low-quality).

Most people commenting here have never written or reviewed a DEI statement, have never applied to faculty positions, and likely don't even have the minimal requisite education to quality for these positions.

What's worse is that there's a concerted effort by the political class to terrify parents. On right this manifests as "the wokes want your white boys to starve to death". It's all bullshit peddled by useless people who need your attention in order to extract money from the economy without doing anything useful. You're the mark.

So, here's the actual truth about how university hiring DEI statements impact your white hetero sons:

At most colleges and universities, the concern about DEI has a lot more to do with finances than "woke ideology".

There's no interest in "replacing the white males". On the contrary, they'd love to have as many people of whatever background around as possible. But keeping their current enrollment numbers requires recruiting and retaining more diverse students because they are losing up to 20% of the total addressable market due to the post-2008 baby bust. They want to know faculty can serve a more diverse clientele, because they are pretty certain they cannot continue to exist if they are 80+% white. Especially from a retention perspective.

And, to be blunt: the colleges are correct to be concerned and prioritize DEI. The existing tenured faculty are terrible at working with students who aren't from a very traditional socio-economic demographic. That is why colleges lose more than half of their paying customers after the first year of enrollment. Retention numbers broken out by demo paint a very clear picture.

Consider this: you are a business. Your TAM is decreasing by 20% in the next decade and there's competition closing in from every side. Not just that, but you lose loses HALF your customer base in their first year as customers. And it's clear the reason you lose half your customers in year one is that your faculty either DGAF or don't know how to help that demographic succeed (aka retain customers). Wouldn't you want to hire staff who have proven experience working with the portion of the customer base you keep losing -- center that in job interviews, even?

And, again, straight white males are fine candidates. Faculty who do not give a fuck about retaining non-affluent students are not okay. Because the institution will go bankrupt if that's the attitude.

It's really that simple.

This doesn't describe every institution, but it does describe the vast majority of America's 4,000+ post-secondary institutions.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You no longer hire the best candidate on the merits but rather the one with a sufficiently high DEI score.

Isn't "ability to work with people of a diverse background" also one of the merits in a very, very diverse society?

Ding ding ding. I'm still struggling to understand what is so bad about wanting to have a diverse workplace...

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#255
post #88
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the key question is not your race but whether you've had involvement in issues related to dei. white people can get high dei scores. black people can get low dei scores. it's not racism?

And yet strangely you wrote this: > white, male scientist from an affluent background Instead of "white people can get high dei scores". Anyway this discussion always end with a Motte-and-bailey fallacy. You say something obviously racist, I call you out on it and then you retreat to a defensible argument. The only real way to fix it is to vote for people willing to fix it. Not to argue with Internet strangers about…

It's a wonder how some people manage to get out of their bed every day without taking issue with their sheets, and the pillows, and the mattress, and the sunlight, and the noise from outside...

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are going to focus on whether or not his trainings use the exact terminology as mine when all he said was "similar" and just skip over " how much we helped non-white people get hired on the team"? This is outright racial discrimination and should be illegal. His complaint is even more egregious than mine.

Well yes friend, because as presented the accusations seem almost farcical, and to me seem like the result of some misunderstanding, intentional or not. I'm trying to focus on a single topic instead of looking for ways to get further incensed.

[deleted]

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#257
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While some DEI policies are arguably discriminatory, many are not. If you know that the general population is 20% race A, 10% race B, 30% race C, and yet your admissions are only pulling in 40% race C, 5% race B and 55% race A, you know something is wrong. Policies designed to keep your admissions closer to the general population would not count as discrimination because if everything is functioning correctly your di…

Maybe, maybe not. One can have a heated discussion about whether this style of DEI / affirmative action is discrimination, but there’s a less heated and more empirical discussion to be had: is it effective , or, on a related note, is it the right approach? Suppose I observe that 10% of the population is in class X, but only 5% of my hires are. I could try to adjust my job application acceptance criteria to increase t…

Strongly agreed that many actions people are taking don't work very well. I still think something has to be done, and we should use evidence and analysis to figure out which methods are most effective. We can't just leave it alone.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you had metrics on race distribution in music, spread across the entire population of the US, yes I would expect that a record label fairly and evenly recruiting would have artist metrics that match. Where artist choice comes in to the picture is if a label focuses on a single genre, you're now subject to the race balance in that genre. I don't think that's a problem, but it still is ideally fair recruiting.

Is there a single Asian American in the Billboard Top 100? Do you think if you asked 100 Asian American families and 100 Black American families; would you rather have your child go to an Ivy League college or appear in the Billboard Top 100, that the answers would be relatively equal between the two groups? It is not a problem to be solved when different cultural groups make different choices for themselves and thei…

I don't think "it's way too late to easily solve these problems" really supports claims that DEI is discriminatory or bad, though. It just means it's ineffective.

Investing in children and creating equal opportunities for children are both great measures to take to boost diversity in education and the workplace.

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#259

This is the sort of thing that confounds me. It proports to be anti racist but it's the opposite, it treats minorities as a special lesser class that require protection from everyone else. It's the civil rights movement in reverse. It's already started bleeding into the workspace with mandatory training and verbiage that essentially says anything you do in your interactions with a minority if they accuse you of anyth…

> I worry about my kids if this keeps escalating. I dislike Desantis for many reasons but ended up voting for him specifically for this reason and a couple of other cultural issues. He's not going to do anything about it. He's going to start a few fights to get press attention, then give up on it as soon as they stop paying attention, since he's just running your state government as PR for a presidential campaign. (Y…

>> I worry about my kids if this keeps escalating. I dislike Desantis for many reasons but ended up voting for him specifically for this reason and a couple of other cultural issues.

> He's not going to do anything about it. He's going to start a few fights to get press attention, then give up on it as soon as they stop paying attention, since he's just running your state government as PR for a presidential campaign.

So who will do something about it?

I ask because I often see arguments as yours as a tactic to encourage passivity or for someone to take action against their own goals (e.g. "the people who seem to agree with you are only doing it for show[, so stay home or vote for the people who disagree with you]").

Re: Mandatory DEI statements are becoming the norm in academic hiring

#260
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Banning books Everyone bans books. I am surprised this is such a meme because you probably won't find many supposed free speech activists also being in favor of putting Mein Kampf in the student library for the children or teachers teaching Creationist perspectives on science. I think there needs to be a question of merit about what is taught, no?

Stop. There is a universe of difference between curating selections for children's and/or adult libraries, and a government official stepping in to control and/or ban books. The former is part of the job, the latter is overreach.

Sure it is. So hypothetically if some content you found objectionable was being taught to children in, let's pick a state at random, California, you would be opposed to Gov. Newsom stepping in to ban the material? Let's say the material had a history of being politically charged but the other side insists it is valid material. I'll leave it up to you to decide what is objectionable but see my other comment for suggestions. Are you still committed to preventing government overreach now? If so, that's consistent at least.
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