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As a US Navy fighter pilot, I witnessed unidentified anomalous phenomena

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Re: As a US Navy fighter pilot, I witnessed unidentified anomalous phenomena

#871

Post by MockObject »

godelski wrote: post #672
ALittleLight wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autonomous devices wouldn't need to send signals back home. They might be fully autonomous. Also, I don't think we can rule out aliens within our solar system. An alien civilization beneath the ocean of some moon?

> Autonomous devices wouldn't need to send signals back home. They might be fully autonomous. To... what? Study a civilization and do nothing with the data? > Also, I don't think we can rule out aliens within our solar system. An alien civilization beneath the ocean of some moon? Yeah, we pretty much can. Odds are extremely low. Now, life might exist, but not advanced space fairing life. Those civilizations produce a…

> To... what? Study a civilization and do nothing with the data?

Arguments like this neglect the relative inscrutability of even human motivations, with which we ought to be intimately familiar, yet can nevertheless perplex us.

Humans undertake spectacular projects as jokes, religious activities, and as art. There's really no speculating about equivalent, befuddling alien motivations, and certainly nothing to rule out autonomous devices that travel unfathomable distances, and then play hide and seek when approached directly.

Re: As a US Navy fighter pilot, I witnessed unidentified anomalous phenomena

#872

Post by epgui »

jack_pp wrote: post #794
naasking wrote: post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something CAN be real and beyond current scientific understanding I think you're reading that wrong. "Beyond scientific understanding" doesn't mean "beyond current scientific understanding", it actually means, "beyond any possible scientific understanding". So a supernatural phenomenon would defeat any possible attempt at characterizing it scientifically.

Have you considered that you're interpreting it wrong? Go back in time with self-replicating, able to construct themselves to predefined structures, nanobots and you'll have supernatural powers that "violate" scientific understanding of the time. Doesn't mean it can't be explained. It is true hubris and actually kind of sad to think we know all laws of nature and nothing new could stump us and our cherished laws of n…

Let's look at the root word. "Natural" does not mean "familiar" or "understood". It just means that it's a part of the physical world we inhabit. Conversely, the "supernatural" is what exists beyond the physical world we inhabit: it's not real by definition.

This is all a semantic disagreement and not a question of hubris or overconfidence or of how advanced our knowledge really is.

Re: As a US Navy fighter pilot, I witnessed unidentified anomalous phenomena

#873

Post by epgui »

midoridensha wrote: post #590
epgui wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was real, it would not be called “supernatural”, by literal definition.

Quantum effects, like those used by the LEDs on your computer, used to be "supernatural" until someone figured out the physics behind them and invented devices capable of exploiting these effects. If you could bring an LED back in time to the year 1500 and show it to people then (with a power source and current driver of course), they would surely call it "supernatural".

They were never supernatural. They were just not known or not understood. Physics is by some definition the study of the natural world. There is a lot we don't know about the natural world, but what we know and don't know aren't what make something "supernatural".

Re: As a US Navy fighter pilot, I witnessed unidentified anomalous phenomena

#874

Post by ostenning »

wpietri wrote: post #749
ostenning wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not really sure what your point is, your measuring Aliens in relation to Humans and our understanding of the universe. If Aliens did get to Earth most theories would imply that they have broken physical laws that we haven’t, so for all intents and purposes, they do have extra-magic technology. Maybe they also have threat models and can adapt to our rate of change? I don’t know, but thinking that we are the only pa…

Sure, now substitute "angels" for "Aliens" and you could ring doorbells on Sunday. Have all the fantasies you like, of course. But don't please don't mistake it for a serious argument about what we are compelled to believe from evidence. What we have is a long history of humans taking liminal phenomena and using it to justify believe in quasi-anthropomorphic entities that are just out of sight. Fairies, angels, demon…

You made the assumption that our human technology could outpace aliens, you said it yourself. The context of this discussion is based on unidentified aerial phenomena in our sky's as disclosed by the US government and so we are naturally making assumptions based on this evidence. That is all this discussion is about, its not based on some mystical religious gap filler.

My argument is predicated on that if the evidence does hold up, and _if_ Aliens did get to Earth, and _if_ these events are otherworldly then by that token whats to say they couldn't evade our technologies or choose to be detected when they desired?

Re: As a US Navy fighter pilot, I witnessed unidentified anomalous phenomena

#875

Post by ilyt »

danenania wrote: post #691
ilyt wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Magic/supernatural by definition is contrary to physical laws and scientific understanding. Many of the "UFO" observations fall into that. As is "under known physics it is impossible explanation"

The observed behaviors do appear to contradict physical laws. My point is if we’re looking for an explanation, it’s either some natural phenomenon or illusion that we don’t understand, human technology, or alien technology. In either of the latter two options, we are either talking about new physics or very advanced spoofing tech that looks like new physics but isn’t really. For human tech, we’ve never seen anything…

The reverse of that is assuming our instruments (which eyes totally are) are perfect and therefore if they saw something it must be the first guess and not just an error or misinterpretation.

You're basically saying "alien tech is un-understandable however we can still easily tell it is alien and not measurement error"

Re: As a US Navy fighter pilot, I witnessed unidentified anomalous phenomena

#876

Post by roeles »

jmyeet wrote: post #362
snickerbockers wrote: post #145

There's a real problem with people being close-minded towards anything that seems fantastical. This includes scientists and other professionals who ought to know better. Obviously it's unscientific to jump to conclusions and assume that anything that doesn't make sense must be aliens or magic or whatever but at the same time, it's also unscientific to ignore physical observations just because they seem like something…

> There's a real problem with people being close-minded towards anything that seems fantastical. Two things: 1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; and 2. The burden of proof belongs to the one making the claim, not on the other side to refute the claim. Anything in the realm of "new physics" (eg claims such objects defy inertia and accelerate at a rate that would kill any person) or extraterrestial…

> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

I see this quote often in this thread. It is stated as a fact, with attribution to Carl Sagan. Yet I see no supporting reasoning for this conclusion.

I find it ironic that - in a thread with so much emphasis on evidence - this statement is repeated as if it was gospel.

I ask: why? What is an extraordinary claim? What constitutes extraordinary evidence?

Re: As a US Navy fighter pilot, I witnessed unidentified anomalous phenomena

#877

Post by marmetio »

likeabbas wrote: post #869
marmetio wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's true, then clearly they're doing something about it, so I don't understand why you think they're not doing enough for security. If it is aliens, why would they confirm it and start a race to get alien tech first? You can wait a bit for them to figure it out. If it's not aliens, why would they reveal the details of classified information?

The only thing I'm doing is trying to convince people this is not a waste in effort to track. Many have been hoping for government disclosure for decades, but now the timeline for that to happen seems to be accelerating

Tracking it is your hobby. It's not a waste if you enjoy doing it.

Re: As a US Navy fighter pilot, I witnessed unidentified anomalous phenomena

#878

Post by [deleted] »

somenameforme wrote: post #645
reso wrote: post #596

Mick West's breakdowns of the Pentagon UAP videos was the nail in the coffin of this era of UFO hype for me. https://youtu.be/Le7Fqbsrrm8?t=665 These were supposed to be the smoking gun evidence. UFO believers inside the DoD and as high up as US Senators fought for years to get them declassified. As soon as they were public, they were all quickly identified as sensor glare, bokeh, or mis-understood perspective. More…

Mick West has one major problem. He takes a video, and works to create any sort of elaborate explanation with zero consideration given to probability or externalities. If he can create the same visual effect he then declares his concept as the "truth", and everything else "debunked." Zero effort is made to challenge his own conclusions or assess their probability. As an example in the Gimbel video [1], he concludes t…

[deleted]

Re: As a US Navy fighter pilot, I witnessed unidentified anomalous phenomena

#879

Post by scotty79 »

likeabbas wrote: post #870
scotty79 wrote: post #849

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solid scientists: Immunologist that thinks he saw UFO: https://med.stanford.edu/profiles/garry-nolan Guy who thought Oumuamua is alien spaceship (gathered evidence gives exactly zero reasons to think that): https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/Avi-Lo... Theoretical physicist with his head deep in things like Alcubierre drive that appears from Einstein's equations when applied to such things as negati…

All you do is take one point from each of their accomplishments out of context and refute their entire credibility. Gary Nolan is the one of the premiere immunologists and pathologists in the world. He has created multiple multi-million dollar companies. He was asked by the CIA to perform scans on people who had been encountered UAP and had health effects or death. Avi Loeb is a renowned Harvard astrophysicist. Yes,…

All of my credentials is that I learned a bit of physics and I read a bit of SF and I can tell one from the other. If it was about existence of leprechauns and effects of meeting them you'd have no problem dismissing it as well regardless of how accomplished people would be interested in the subject. And if it's UFO which has exactly the same amount of confirmed evidence as leprechauns suddenly there's a problem and you need credentials because ufologists made their belief sound sciency.

I know that those 3 scientists are accomplished people in their respective, unassociated fields. For various definitions of the word "accomplished".

But I'd much rather see a psychiatrist and plane surveillance device constructor/tester and possibly a magician or a con artist investigating those documents coming out of DoD first than three avid ufologists. In my opinion it might be way more productive and brilliant immunologist could stick to doing good work in immunology, astrophysicist could research new insights in astrophysics that is actually very promising field, and ex DoD employee very theoretical physicist might continue his mid life crisis or whatever he's doing.

But rest assured, the research is going on. Good news for you:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-try-to...

I'll just be bitter for the waste of research power for the next few years before it goes away. As it always did.

Maybe they'll even get the funding becuse eyes up the sky might be useful:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40054/adversary-drones...

Re: As a US Navy fighter pilot, I witnessed unidentified anomalous phenomena

#880

Post by deadbeeves »

bloak wrote: post #729
deadbeeves wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to admit, given that resources are finite, the dismissive attitude is warranted. Why is it that alien spaceships (let's call them what people actually think is being discussed, and not just any random flying thing that we don't know what it is) only show up on equipment when you can barely tell what you're looking at, and never clearly and unambiguously from multiple places?

Sorry for the pedantry, but if they are flying around in the earth's atmosphere then they are not "spaceships" even if they are being operated by extraterrestrials. Likewise, NASA's Mars Helicopter is not a spacesheep even though it is operated by extramartians. I think it's good to get that terminology right so as not to confuse naive readers into assuming that the things that are putatively observed as UFOs crossed…

>Sorry for the pedantry, but if they are flying around in the earth's atmosphere then they are not "spaceships" even if they are being operated by extraterrestrials.

I'll see your pedantry and raise you my own pedantry. The fact that a hypothetical craft flies around in an atmosphere does not imply that it's not a spaceship. A vessel could conceivably be capable of flying through some fluid at one time and through the vacuum of space at another, and would thus be called a spaceship. For example, the Space Shuttle was a spaceship even when it was operating under aerodynamic forces. Since we're talking about alien ships, they would have to be alien spaceships, because otherwise we would have to accept that these aliens have the necessary infrastructure and facilities to land their spaceships somewhere (some kind of alien spaceport on Earth?), disembark, and board their alien aircraft to fly around Earth's atmosphere, which is an even more ridiculous idea.

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