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Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

mennohenselmans.com

141–150 of 248 posts

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#141

"Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to lift no heavy-ass weights." - Ronnie Coleman I have gained quite a bit of muscle mass after building out a home gym during covid. I'm no scientist but following the Reddit PPL[1] workout and eating lots of protein did the trick for me. [1] - https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/37ylk5/a_linear_pr...

I have lifted for 30 years. The standard bullshit line in the fitness industry has always been "everyone else is wrong". Practically what every single trainer ever in the world has said. The reason is because of all the things I have done in my life, lifting is the most trivially simple activity there is. It is as complex as shoveling dirt. The only way to differentiate if trying to make money is to bullshit. Pick th…

Darn, I can't find it. There's a guy who claims his only form of workout is just moving a massive pile of dirt back and forth in his yard. Significant because he's a pro athlete of some sort but I forget what he does -- NFL, UFC, strongman...

One day I'll stumble upon it again and come back here and share. Just thought it was funny to compare it to shoveling dirt when that's actually what an elite athlete does somewhere out in the world lol

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#142
post #36

"Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to lift no heavy-ass weights." - Ronnie Coleman I have gained quite a bit of muscle mass after building out a home gym during covid. I'm no scientist but following the Reddit PPL[1] workout and eating lots of protein did the trick for me. [1] - https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/37ylk5/a_linear_pr...

I'm planning out a home/garage gym now. Is there any equipment you recommend? Or ones that people should stay away from?

I live in NYC and don't have the space to build out a home gym, but if I could the two things I'd love to get would be a heavy bag [1] and a gymnastics stall bar [2]. I have some kettlebells and thicker muay thai jump ropes I'd throw in there too. Practicing on a heavy bag for a even a few rounds is a crazy workout, and there's a lot you can do on a stall bar [3].

[1] https://www.boonsport.com/collections/heavy-bags/products/co...

[2] https://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-stall-bar-3-0

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvfi4hWw5tw

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s literally how science works? Hypertrophy has largely been settled and the main mechanisms and science underneath are well known by now. Call is post-2017. Source: up 40lb of Dexa scan muscle from 2014-2023, at 15lb greater body weight. Not rocket science. Strongly recommend Renaissance Periodization (the hundred of hours of lectures on YouTube if that’s your thing, the two main textbooks, the training template…

In your experience is there a programming silver bullet for those who want to build an aesthetic physique? ( men in particular) like the highest roi

Someone higher up posted this link - every good coach I've seen recommends something very similar to this

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/37ylk5/a_linear_pr...

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't eat carbs for the pump. It's right there in the paragraph -- you eat carbs to have glycogen, so you can lift more. Then you stop eating carbs to get shredded. Your own quote just says it is an effect, not that it's the purpose.

And he's saying the article is wrong. People love hate bro science but most bodybuilders go through a lot of trial and error to find the right diet. And they don't meassure success by looks* but by performance (eg. new PR). The article basically thinks that bodybuilders don't actually know what they are doing when most actually do. Maybe not all understand the exact science (although some certainly do) but they do kn…

> most bodybuilders go through a lot of trial and error to find the right diet.

Scientists sometimes go through a lot of trial and error and fail, despite of using n>1, despite of collecting a lot of data and processing it with tricky statistical methods.

Just going through motions of trial and error doesn't guarantee a success. One can hope that he will do a gradient descent and will find a local minimum, but even this is not guaranteed, because for gradient descent you need to identify all the variables and measure all partial derivatives. And do this multiple times, for each step of gradient descent.

> they exist as a community of millions of people all trying things are reporting what works

Millions of flies cannot be wrong? I'm sorry, I cannot resist the urge to bring this phrase.

Lets try more rational arguments and start with the question: could these millions do a search for a global maximum?

1. Most of them do not track their progress, do not write things they do, and just relying on the innate abilities of their minds to learn the best way. So they reports of their results are not reliable. Probably they can be used to seek truth but one needs to be very careful and skillful to do this properly.

2. Just a few of them can measure the real result with high enough frequency. One needs an access to medical diagnostics to learn what their bulges consist of. Is this a lot of muscle fibers or not so much fibers but they are swelled? Why they are swelled? So really they can vaguely suspect what results they got after several months of adopting new training strategy.

3. They do not track failures. If someone tried their methods and failed, he would leave the scene quietly. So if these methods works only for a small part of self selected population, bodybuilders would remain in a blissful ignorance of the fact. It is a selection bias that can be substantial in bodybuilding.

So we know about some successes but we cannot attribute them reliably to a training strategy, because it may be the result of genes or medication or something else. And bodybuilders have incentives to lie: it is more honorable to get big muscles through pain and hard work than through a lot of medication or due to favorable gene combination. Most of them probably even do not lie consciously, they fool themselves while doing their "research" what works and what doesn't.

So I believe that all these millions of bodybuilders are not a reliable global maximizer. Just looking at data generated by them we cannot judge if they had found a global maximum or something else. Though they probably have found some local maximum, but we do not how good it is for a general population.

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#146

There is no mystery to getting strong it's simple physics, you must do work. The problem is most people don't want to put in the work. They don't want to come in lift a heavy bar 3-4 times a week. What they want to do is come in do box jumps and battle ropes and other cool things they see on their favorite influences tictoc video. People expect long term results from a short term effort and wonder why they don't get…

This completely misses the point of the entire article, which is by/for power lifter and bodybuilders. Obviously there is no way around "lift a heavy bar 3-4x a week." The whole discussion is about whether any of the folk-wisdom/bro-science of exactly how to pick things up and put them down is empirically more effective.

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have lifted for 30 years. The standard bullshit line in the fitness industry has always been "everyone else is wrong". Practically what every single trainer ever in the world has said. The reason is because of all the things I have done in my life, lifting is the most trivially simple activity there is. It is as complex as shoveling dirt. The only way to differentiate if trying to make money is to bullshit. Pick th…

No offence, but as someone who worked in construction, shovelling is actually not simple at all. And working with a pick is even more complex. There are all kinds of optimizations you can introduce to avoid back injury and to maintain a steady rhythm over an eight-hour workday.

Just like lifting - but past a certain fairly easy to reach point it's just about repetition and micro optimization.

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment makes no sense in the context of Menno’s work. He’s a bodybuilder, coaches bodybuilders, and his content targets bodybuilders. You’ve just built a straw man argument. When you say “then you stop eating carbs to get shredded” is just bollocks. No real bodybuilder stops eating carbs to get shredded. We (I say we because I am a contest bodybuilder) tend to reduce carb intake during a cut or show prep becaus…

You don't have to stop eating carbs, but not eating carbs has the possibility[1] to save off some gluconeogenesis by subbing fat for muscle while in ketosis, retaining more gains from the bulk. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/

What kind of fat reserves do you think competition bodybuilders normally have?

Also note that dipping below some level of body fat is actively harmful to your body.

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#149
post #41

I have been weight training for almost 30 years. I've tried just about every program, split and variation under the sun, and I've seen and practiced for a time fads that have come and gone. In the last six months, I have changed things up. I now train with low volume per muscle group (on average, 4-6 sets per muscle group, reps per set between 6 and 12, pushing very hard, close to exercise, not muscle, failure, which…

How do you know whether your increased strength comes from the lower volume, as opposed to just the increase in protein and addition of magnesium supplements?

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to stop eating carbs, but not eating carbs has the possibility[1] to save off some gluconeogenesis by subbing fat for muscle while in ketosis, retaining more gains from the bulk. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/

Frankly that makes no sense in the context of a bodybuilder. All of those studies listed in the review you posted are targeting either overweight people or "normal weight", both miles away from the body composition of a bodybuilder. You can't take that and try to apply the same results to someone who's got their diet, exercise, sleep, daily steps, even salt intake dialed in like a bodybuilder does. We all accept ther…

I was speaking more generally, not necessarily in the context of competition bodybuilding. Should have clarified.
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