Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#441

Post by programmarchy » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:39 PM UTC

broast wrote: post #314

I think part of DEI is to compensate for currently existing racial prejudices that are unknowingly disadvantaging your probability of hire. What you see as an advantage gained by DEI might actually just be the equalizer that brings you to equal footing with others

OP already has equal footing based on his qualifications. He doesn't need an "equalizer". The people who would discriminate against him are the ones who need an "equalizer". In that light, companies who are celebrating diversity are essentially patting themselves on the back for not being racist. So when companies grift so hard off this, it's embarrassing everyone in the process.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#442

Post by The5thElephant » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:40 PM UTC

hnuser123456 wrote: post #404

Mezzie wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to not being white, but I can speak to being female and gay in those spaces. I'm a 3rd generation geek/techie/hacker and the hostility really ramped up when I hit puberty. 8 year old me was treated decently: I got a lot of shit for asking stupid questions and me + my intelligence was insulted regularly (since most people didn't know I was a child), but the rape threats and constant sexual comments start…

As a straight white dude, yeah there were a lot of nerd spaces with white dudes that imagined they were surrounded by other white dudes and some of them felt no need to be inclusive. But I wouldn't judge any profession too deeply solely by the behavior of teenagers who express interest in that profession. They're going to act like teenagers no matter which profession. Find a big enough young hacker space and you'll b…

I know for a fact a lot of the people participating in these communities were fully adults, and the age of the people being racist does little to mitigate the impact it has on the people on the receiving end of it.

I find it really bizarre how many people here are insistent on diminishing or excusing the experience the original commenter had.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#443

Post by Manuel_D » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:40 PM UTC

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #383

nonethewiser wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI is about factoring in race. Race should never be part of the decision making process. On top of being morally reprehensible its also illegal.

DEI can also be about looking past stereotypes. A couple of decades worth of research has shown racial bias against URMs in hiring exists. Breaking past it with a requirement to interview and consider URMs is a start, not the finish. https://hbr.org/2021/02/research-how-companies-committed-to-...

Alternatively, it could be ameliorated in a non-discriminatory way by anonymizing applications.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#444

Post by noobermin » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:40 PM UTC

throwaway35934 wrote: post #321

michaelt wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen quite a few people angrily push back on statements like 'pipeline problem' and I don't understand why. Well, some people think when a company says "pipeline problem" it's a PR-vetted way to announce they ain't going to do shit. Whether you think that's true probably depends on how cynical you are.

I mean, what are they supposed to do? To take one obvious example: there's massive under-performance of black men (vs. any other group) at every stage of the educational ladder up to the tertiary level. There simply aren't enough qualified candidates for engineering jobs for firms to be representative of the relative populations at a national level. 36% of white men have at least a bachelors degree; only 19% of black…

1. pay their taxes, so the government can fund public schools so that they can educate black kids in the inner city and poor suburbs better. That can be step one.

Also, the GP did say they can do scholarships and such, there's that. Also (shudder) consider hiring from state schools and don't filter on where you got your degree, but the quality of education, which yes is much harder to judge. Also, fucking train your own hires, don't expect them to be brill out of the gate.

There is a lot they can do that really is actually quite colorblind on the surface that will lift all boats, but will actually disproportionately lift PoC since they skew worse on the metrics, as you stated.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#445

Post by hgsgm » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

spangry wrote: post #21

> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…

You're right. The US should end DEI/AA efforts and just pay reparations for the $trillions in debt owed to descendants of slaves and others who were oppressed and robbed by law for centuries.

Or is that not what you meant?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#446

Post by excerionsforte » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

IRC was pretty toxic for sure. If you didn't know the other person, you assumed they were white since it is the predominate skin color and American for that matter. Typically wouldn't question it unless they used different wording patterns or languages. IRC was attractive in some ways and offputting in others. I never really got into it outside of my #gamedev interests.

DEI initiatives as a backlash against the forced exclusion of people from the broader economy makes sense to me. It's crazy the amount of the legal and government system that was employed in the past because of what people thought to be true about other people.

I'm unclear of how much impact the intiatives have on hiring or retention. I feel this is one of the reasons why DEI initiatives highlight token people probably to show they are doing something (results) and the budget for it is justified. Would be nice to see the statistics from mid to large companies on how these initiatives have fared on multiple groups and worker productivity for that matter, but until then it feels like it has no to mixed impact at a company which seems to be the ideas of people not included in these initiatives.

DEI just feels vague and threatening to some people. I've seen Reddit threads of people saying they don't support DEI initiatives because how can they "secure a future for their child" which to me is highly obtuse. Who knows what a child will do in the future.

I'm all for hiring diverse candidates and helping those who have high curiosity and propensity to just do the work rather than the idea that one must be experienced in order to execute. It's the same way I am towards younger people, though you don't see the same backlash against initiatives in that arena unless older people are losing their jobs for the sake of it. In the end, I want people who will (not can) help with the work and will teach others.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#447

Post by dbrueck » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #319

dbrueck wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :) Speaking of 2 things being true at once, what's amazing about BBSs/USENET/IRC/etc. especially in the early years was that they had: - online discussions where a lot of things just didn't matter. Race, gender, etc. just didn't matter. You got judged on the merit of your ideas, not what you looked…

> Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :) So the opportunity to make many different people feel excluded is better? I'm not sure what you're getting at?

The point was an answer to this question:

> Do you know VIRULENTLY anti-black (or woman, or gay) these communities were? I can't begin to describe it.

The answer is: "in a somewhat limited way, yes, yes I do". I can't know exactly what it was (and is) like, but the diversity of awfulness in some of those communities allowed me to experience meanness on a level I had never experienced before, which in turn has helped me feel more empathy towards those who deal with things like sexism and racism both online and offline.

Before, I had only an intellectual understanding that those things were terrible, which led me to under-appreciate just how much they can hurt. Perhaps I still under-appreciate it (who knows?), but I'm definitely closer to understanding than I was before, and that's a good thing.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#448

Post by PuppyTailWags » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:43 PM UTC

parasense wrote: post #429

fsociety wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This ignores the rampant racist/sexist comments often made on IRC/BBS, which were a reflection of society. Anyone who spent a good amount of time in these communities know it was a problem - hence why some very small invite-only communities were formed. So yes, the idealism is there. No one knows who you identify as in a text channel unless you let them. But it does not remove the fact that these communities could of…

> This ignores the rampant racist/sexist comments often made on IRC/BBS Nice straw man argument you got there... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man But I'll take the bait... > Anyone who spent a good amount of time in these communities know it was a problem... Interesting. I've been on IRC for decades, and while any online forum has the feature where trolls are capable of making awful remarks for the lulz, it's…

I've been on IRC for a similar amount of time, sexual harassment was always done in private so you wouldn't have seen it on main rooms, and victims were often newbies who didn't know reporting channels or didn't feel empowered to report, being the noobs and all. (Think randomly PMing women to ask for feet/boob pictures, or asking to be PMd to help debug something and then use it as an opportunity to pressure for sext)

I used to be part of multiple IRC channels that swear up and down that they're not a bigoted/political community they're just a focused technical chat about .NET or something, and then spout off calling things "faggotry" every day with no self-awareness whatsoever.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#449

Post by hvs » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:43 PM UTC

To be fair, as a pretty smart, white man in technology, my parents paid for half of my college to a prestigious engineering university and I've had friends and acquaintances (that I've built from my network) that have gotten me to where I am today. If it helps, you can think of DEI initiatives as making up for the lack of an existing network that many minorities have in the business world.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#450

Post by hnuser123456 » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:43 PM UTC

The5thElephant wrote: post #442

hnuser123456 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a straight white dude, yeah there were a lot of nerd spaces with white dudes that imagined they were surrounded by other white dudes and some of them felt no need to be inclusive. But I wouldn't judge any profession too deeply solely by the behavior of teenagers who express interest in that profession. They're going to act like teenagers no matter which profession. Find a big enough young hacker space and you'll b…

I know for a fact a lot of the people participating in these communities were fully adults, and the age of the people being racist does little to mitigate the impact it has on the people on the receiving end of it. I find it really bizarre how many people here are insistent on diminishing or excusing the experience the original commenter had.

I find it bizarre you're diminishing mine. I got roasted by leetcode pros and othered by turbonerds too. That's humanity. I bet they haven't gotten as far as me since then, and that's an attitude that anyone who has faced pointless discrimination should keep in mind.