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Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

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Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#861

Post by RestlessMind »

kaba0 wrote: post #805
RestlessMind wrote: post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you are making assumption that these people are all stupid. What is your arguement?

Intelligence aside, do we/they have proper data on the topic to make an objective and sound decision in the first place? It’s not really something that can be just “thought out” like a step in a game of chess. In my opinion and experience, coworker’s performance vary greatly in and of itself and we can hardly ever correctly measure a single person’s “productivity” in a non-faulty way. Many companies’ simply fall back…

> do we/they have proper data on the topic to make an objective and sound decision in the first place?

Let's assume none of us have any data to make an informed decision. Then what is our "default path"? In-office arrangement is something that has been tried out for decades if not more. The decision makers, who are typically C-suite or execs, are specifically the ones who progressed and thrived in that system. Guess what they are going to choose when there is a lot of uncertainty? Obviously an in-office setup, with maybe some concessions to working from home 1-2 days a week because that's comfortable even for them.

The only exception would be young founders who haven't learned any setting yet, and in fact who would like the allure of a "digital nomad" lifestyle more to embrace fully-remote.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#862

Post by RestlessMind »

mixedCase wrote: post #804
RestlessMind wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not like you are providing any cogent argument. Execs sure have their own biases but they do have a lot of data to make important decisions like RTO policy. If you disagree with them, maybe it says more about your ignorance, blind spots and biases?

Sure, I'll bite. What's the data on remote work?

Just replied to another comment in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34679651

TL;DR: if there is no data, decision makers are going to stick to what they know best. And what current execs / c-suite knows best is in-office. They haven't learned management techniques for fully-remote yet.

I also started compiling research showing the value of in-person interaction: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34673235

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#864

Post by JohnFen »

l33t233372 wrote: post #507
JohnFen wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's much easier to build these connections in the office than virtually. This isn't self-evident to me at all.

It isn’t self evident that humans communicate better in person than from behind cameras and screens? Do you know how much time people spend on other tabs while in zoom meetings?

Correct, it isn't self-evident to me at all, but it depends on what is being communicated, of course. In-person communications are slow, and half of the communication isn't really about the topic at hand.

In terms of meetings, I've only rarely seen a meeting that couldn't have accomplished the same goals in 1/10 the time if it done without being a meeting. Whether in-person or zoom. The information density is far too low, too much time is taken up with things that aren't moving toward the goal, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#865

Post by JohnFen »

jjav wrote: post #783
thrwawy74 wrote: post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like you, I appreciated his comment. It was honest, and I have been there. We are in the shaking-out phase of this change. The bigger problem is management isn't across-the-board good at determining productivity in-person or remote. Good managers are rare, and staring over someone's shoulder to make sure the work is getting done correctly is harder in remote work. The systems to provide this checking and oversight ar…

> I've been at the other end of the spectrum where I don't get work done in the office. Open offices are what destroyed the experience of going to work. When I had a private office (the first 17 years of my career) I loved going to the office. I had all the silence and privacy to get work done, but at the same time I could step out of the office 2-3 times a day and hang out with the team, chitchat about work, project…

I didn't put this together until I read your comment, but I resonate strongly with what you say here. it's been so long since I had an actual office that I had forgotten and, looking at it through this lens, it's true: what I like about working at home isn't so much the working at home part, but that I now have an office.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#866

Post by JohnFen »

The_Colonel wrote: post #531
giantg2 wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and people can be assholes if they want. Maybe what you describe works at some places or for specific people. Many companies will ignore your ideas. Your title is code monkey and that's all you do - shut up and listen to us important people. Some managers are very threatened by their subordinates, or are unimaginative. The business side generally wants what they want. God forbid you suggest some new approach.

I think you're missing the point, this is not about the split between management and engineering. Code monkey is here somebody who accepts assignment and produces code, without having a lot of understanding for the larger whole. And that's mostly what you get with this attitude that doesn't value any meetings / communication which doesn't relate directly to one's work. But the organizations don't want to have code mo…

I don't see anyone arguing that communication isn't a critical part of working.

> And that's mostly what you get with this attitude that doesn't value any meetings / communication which doesn't relate directly to one's work.

But all the things you've listed in the following paragraph are totally communications that relate directly to one's work. What is the case that unrelated communications are also essential?

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#867

Post by JohnFen »

SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #553
giantg2 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Technical folks simply cannot do their jobs without solid working relationships, and those are not as well formed digitally." Any real data on this? All the data our company has shows increased performance during WFH, such as an increase in deliveries and decrease in cycle time. So even if it's not as well formed, it seems it's formed sufficiently.

I think you focusing on delivery and cycle time is kind of emblematic of my point; none of that matters if you ship the wrong thing, and don’t correct over time, but to you that’s where the conversation ends. That’s not where it actually ends, however. How do you know what to work on? How do you know if you built a profitable thing? Being remote lets you ignore those things in ways that are harder to do in person. Hy…

> Being remote lets you ignore those things in ways that are harder to do in person.

How? That's certainly not what I've observed.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#868

Post by JohnFen »

ftcHn wrote: post #658
leros wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would probably say that 95% of my creative problem solving type work happened in unstructured conversations like hallway conversations. A lot of value was definitely lost there.

+1 Some of my best ideas that ended up being company changing started as a conversation walking to lunch with colleagues. Initially these ideas were just undeveloped thoughts and I would never dream about booking a meeting to present them. Having a chance to develop them in a casual conversation might have been the difference between successfully building the thing and not doing it at all. I love working from home bu…

> Initially these ideas were just undeveloped thoughts and I would never dream about booking a meeting to present them.

Your company doesn't have informal communications channels for this sort of thing? Team/Slack/whatever? In every place I've worked for the last 15-20 years (it was different before that), such informal "watercooler" talks have never happened in person, whether everyone was in the office or not. It was always over electronic communications.

The reason for this is that it's less disruptive to other productive work.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#869

Post by JohnFen »

mort96 wrote: post #620
whynaut wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there’s no point adding 2+ hours of commuting to my day for what could be a video call. I don’t really understand why many commenters here are expressing a sentiment that you can’t get to know someone digitally. Some of the best people in my life were met online, both personally and professionally.

You don't get coincidental conversations between people of different department with no set agenda through a zoom meeting. I'm not saying it's worth 2+ hours of commuting. And honestly, I think it's bullshit that employers expect commuting time to be unpaid; if having people in the office is something they consider valuable, they should be paying for that commute time. But I reject the idea that those conversations h…

I accept the idea that those conversations have value. I reject the idea that they can only happen in person. I have no data on this, just my own personal experience and observations over the years.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#870

Post by JohnFen »

DangerousPie wrote: post #371
Johnny555 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An example might be, "You know, I didn't want to say anything in the meeting, but doesn't Greg's data lake proposal sound exactly like the project that failed two years ago?" A lot of that seems to happen over Slack already - whether you're in the meeting or at home.

I am a lot more open in honest in person than I am on Slack, because I know everything I say on Slack is logged and can bite me in the ass years down the line.

I am just the opposite. On slack, I can think through what I want to say to make sure I'm conveying what I intend to convey. In person, I can't do that at all.
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