Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#461

Post by Gigachad » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 9:03 PM UTC

herghost wrote: post #416

nostromo wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in person isn't the issue here -- not having friends is the issue. People do make friends at work, and that's a good thing. But it should never be your primary place of making friends. (Friends and family won't lay you off like a job might. Having a network outside of work is critical if that ever happens.) Asking your coworkers to come into the office just so you can get some needed face time with other peop…

Sorry, but I have to disagree. I'm happily married, children, dog, several distinct groups of friends, great job at a great company, lovely house in a nice village, etc, etc, etc. I worked from home for about 4 years as a freelancer and found it incredibly isolating (but lucrative, so endured it) but finally had enough and get a permanent job back in an office. This was 5 weeks before what would be the first of sever…

You have to go back to the office. All my friends and coworkers who have tried it haven’t gone back to remote work. People weren’t meant to sit alone all day.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#462

Post by hypothesis » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 9:04 PM UTC

lairv wrote: post #430

cal85 wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> frankly that feels like a you problem It's also a me problem, so there's at least two of us.

At least three you can count me in as well It's funny how people (in this thread and in general when the topic comes) find infuriating the idea of making friends or just socialize at work, when most friendships starts because some people happen to spend 8h/day at the same school/university

It’s funny how people find it necessary to participate in in-group/out-group dynamics/politics at work, long past high school.

What if one could get paid for doing a job without any of that by skipping “socialize at work” altogether?

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#463

Post by SnowHill9902 » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 9:04 PM UTC

Communication bandwidth.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#464

Post by bee_rider » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 9:05 PM UTC

camgunz wrote: post #453

asdadsdad wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is much more than a one person's problem, but it's a general issue that many older people with well-established lives don't sympathize with unfortunately. As much as others can deny, work is source of most people's friendships, relationships, mentorships, and other social interactions. There's hardly a substitute for that outside.

It's a symptom of societies that require you to work way too much and get everything (status, health care, socialization) from your job.

This is true but also “fix all of society” is a hard first step and there are folks who are unhappy now.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#465

Post by treis » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 9:05 PM UTC

klyrs wrote: post #300

treis wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're supposed to be actively participating in refinement. Reading the story being talked about, looking up documentation, checking on potential solutions, and other things of that nature. You can't do that with raw chicken on your hands or while walking to the fridge to get veggies. The fact that this has to be explained to people is why there's a push to return to the office.

> You're supposed to be actively participating in refinement. Reading the story being talked about, looking up documentation, checking on potential solutions, and other things of that nature. That's a load of context that wasn't clear from your original comment. The jargon "refinement" is not used where I work. > The fact that this has to be explained to people is why there's a push to return to the office. That you…

I'm not sure how this context is relevant. The point is that you're supposed to be paying attention and I've not yet met a human that can pay attention to two things at once as well as they can to one. I've met a lot that think they can but not any that actually could.

This is why return to office is an attractive option. People are definitely not bringing veggies to chop or laundry to fold to a conference room. And most of them are going to pay attention to a person in their presence talking to them because of basic social niceties. It solves the problem with much less hassle than actually having to identify and cull people who can't handle WFH.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#466

Post by ecshafer » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 9:06 PM UTC

This topic comes up a lot, and the biggest pro return to office argument is essentially social. People want more human interactions that online do not give them.

This I think is more indicative of society, and I think is something that is a gap in society / business opportunity. WeWork, which was poorly run, I think really has a foot into this, but not to the full extent. In urban design there is this idea of a third place, somewhere that is not work or home that people interact. These places have massively declined in the west, especially in the united states. People used to have many many third places. People had work, and home, but then they would also have church that they attended weekly or more, they would have union halls, taverns, social organizations (masons, elks, knights of columbus, vfw, etc). A lot of bars and restaurants are a lot louder and more consumer focused than they used to be I think as well which has hurt.

Public Libraries are another place that could step up, try and get more people to work from there and socialize, but most libraries have pretty bad hours and are undefunded or have strict silence requirements. But I can see a need for some kind location, that is open a lot, 7am-10pm or something, that you pay a membership fee for. That you can go anytime, and drink cheap coffee or beer and work / socialize in them.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#467

Post by giantg2 » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 9:07 PM UTC

joxel wrote: post #345

giantg2 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe for managers. But really it should be about delivering completed projects, especially for technical folks.

If you’re not just a code monkey than those chats are great for coming up with new ideas and fleshing them out over time. But hey you can also just be a code monkey that completes projects assigned to them. To each their own I guess.

Yes, and people can be assholes if they want.

Maybe what you describe works at some places or for specific people. Many companies will ignore your ideas. Your title is code monkey and that's all you do - shut up and listen to us important people. Some managers are very threatened by their subordinates, or are unimaginative. The business side generally wants what they want. God forbid you suggest some new approach.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#468

Post by anon74885 » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 9:07 PM UTC

(CTO here, 100m€ public company in the EU, 200-person development organization. Anonymous to let me speak more freely)

1) I don’t care about per-dev productivity. Might well be some teams are more productive fully remote, looking at some numbers I suspect they are. But our biggest problem is not “cranking out lines of code faster” - it’s making sure we are doing the right projects, not wasting time on the wrong things; and dealing well with all the cross-team dependencies. I’m quite consciously making the trade off that I think devs will be more frequently interrupted and get less work done … in return for which they will be much better informed about what the company is doing and we can focus our efforts more effectively.

2) because this development organization works and I want to keep it functional. This is a public company, we have analysts looking over our shoulders and constantly querying our strategy. We have potentially hostile acquisitions always around the corner. If I am running a fully remote organization then I can’t justify a physical office space in the EU and there’s a very clear route to cost-reduction which is “push all the work out to low CoL countries” And honestly it won’t matter whether that is actually feasible or not, the logic looks too compelling and there’s a risk it would be forced on me, which would be a massive headache because I know it won’t work well. On the other hand, if as a dev organization we are mostly back in the office, it is much easier for me to make the argument that offshoring wouldn’t work.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#469

Post by Adraghast » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 9:07 PM UTC

asdadsdad wrote: post #434

Volundr wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you and doubt nothing about your plight, but frankly that feels like a you problem. I can sympathize while also rejecting the idea that I should have to come into the office so your not lonely. Have you considered a co-working space? It seems like that could get you what your looking for. Beyond that I'd look to get creative around finding ways to get social outside work. A martial arts or social dance class f…

This is much more than a one person's problem, but it's a general issue that many older people with well-established lives don't sympathize with unfortunately. As much as others can deny, work is source of most people's friendships, relationships, mentorships, and other social interactions. There's hardly a substitute for that outside.

> general issue that many older people with well-established lives don't sympathize with unfortunately

Many young adults have friends.

> As much as others can deny, work is source of most people's friendships, relationships, mentorships, and other social interactions.

I will deny it. Citation or speak for yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#470

Post by virtual_void » Sun, Feb 05, 2023, 9:08 PM UTC

lairv wrote: post #430

cal85 wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> frankly that feels like a you problem It's also a me problem, so there's at least two of us.

At least three you can count me in as well It's funny how people (in this thread and in general when the topic comes) find infuriating the idea of making friends or just socialize at work, when most friendships starts because some people happen to spend 8h/day at the same school/university

I don’t see people finding the fact infuriating. People are upset because they feel like people are asking them to come in to the office because someone else wants to socialise.

Enforced socialisation doesn’t seem reasonable any more than denying that some people like to socialise at work. Two sets of people, two different needs.