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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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361–370 of 898 posts

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PoC > White folks I just want to mention that one of the worst aspects of all this is trying to sort people according to (here apparently a binary) label. There is not really such thing as either of these categories - it's stereotyping of the worst kind, and takes us back many generations

Oh heck, let's not even address that saying "people of color" is respectful, but "colored people" is racist.

I'm assuming good faith, and that you truly don't understand the difference. I'd be curious to know if it's because you're old enough to remember when "colored" was "fine", or too young to have an understanding of the racist usage of "colored".

https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/dahleen-glanton/ct-da...

"While the distinctions can be complicated, the information is readily available for anyone willing to seek it out. That means reading and having meaningful conversations with people of different races."

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets even worse, where people are pushing for BIPoC instead of just people of color, indicating that black and indigenous are of primary import, and the rest of the non whites are relegated to "other people of color"

The goal of the bipoc label is to exclude asians from diversity stuff.

Yellow is not a color? I always assumed that Asians are included in PoC.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#364
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’ve hired people at my jobs (big tech to startups in SV) that were underqualified because of diversity measures. If we had ran them through the typical interview gauntlet with the same rubric, they wouldn’t pass. We often changed the interview format or the rubric when presented with someone who was URT pool. I’ve talked to enough managers who complain about lackluster employees and how they’re not fireable because…

IMO the right way to implement diversity is to get more underrepresented people into the funnel, not lowering the bar. But it requires resources that startups might not have/might be unwilling to allocate.

>>the right way to implement diversity is to get more underrepresented people into the funnel, not lowering the bar

This is the best comment in the thread. If you have a diverse funnel you will have diverse employees and as long as you maintain standards, they will be well qualified for the job. This includes internships and job training programs.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#365
post #264

I wish we would transcend to a point where we look up to people based on their achievements and separate their race from it. I’m Asian btw. I can relate to Lebron just as much as I can relate to Neil Armstrong or Satya or Matz or Woz or Marie Curie because they are all excellent at what they did/do. I want to be excellent like them. Because we all are humans.

It's also funny to use the term "Asian". I'm also "Asian" (from Israel). There are hundreds of completely non-related ethnical groups in this vast continent.

Yeah, and what do you call a white Siberian? A large part of Russia is in Asia as well. Asia must have the most ethnic groups, along with the largest population, but somehow they're all one race to the West.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the n-bomb, gay and b*tch and other words as a universal slur and negative adjective were everywhere on irc. Casual rape references were constant, it was about as bad as Xbox voice chat. I have trouble going back and reading much of bash.org's top 100 due to the things you're claiming didn't exist. http://bash.org/?99060 http://bash.org/?5775 http://bash.org/?23601 Just because you didn't mean it or it didn't bot…

Wow, solid resource: http://bash.org/?121764 > why do you crackers steal everything from us? http://bash.org/?51331 >(@virt) cracker barrel is the most hilarious name for a place where a bunch of white people go http://bash.org/?86009 > It's sad when white people try to talk like black inner city people. It's doubly sad when those white people are European. :P Incredibly virulent anti-whiteness. Thank you for posting…

None of that is good? That's the point.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#367

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

(Black man here as well)

This is a great way to put it. I mean, I'm a bit older and over time I've been used to actually being that token, because for a lot of places I've been it was me and no one else. So, I didn't much mind the role as something of a pioneer.

So I'd say, anyone who doesn't like it, e.g. DEI, definitely understand the history, please -- and moreover, the difficulty of externally changing culture. It's ultra-clumsy, but at least for a time it was both inevitable and necessary.

I very much don't personally enjoy is at as well -- but I don't think that means it's without value. I suppose I see even the bad parts as a "bug, not a feature," because we're talking about it.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :) Speaking of 2 things being true at once, what's amazing about BBSs/USENET/IRC/etc. especially in the early years was that they had: - online discussions where a lot of things just didn't matter. Race, gender, etc. just didn't matter. You got judged on the merit of your ideas, not what you looked…

> Online discussions where a lot of things just didn't matter. Race, gender, etc. just didn't matter. You got judged on the merit of your ideas, not what you looked like, not what you sounded like. We actually had real diversity and inclusion before these rent-seeking social media corporations and their fake DEI came in and ruined it. On IRC no one knew I was a 14 year old, or an 80 year old retiree, or male or femal…

This ignores the rampant racist/sexist comments often made on IRC/BBS, which were a reflection of society. Anyone who spent a good amount of time in these communities know it was a problem - hence why some very small invite-only communities were formed.

So yes, the idealism is there. No one knows who you identify as in a text channel unless you let them. But it does not remove the fact that these communities could often have bigoted pockets.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#370
As someone who loves to hire people with different backgrounds and experiences, don't see you being included in diversity hiring discussions as a negative. Don't see it as "Oh, they just want the black guy's opinion". Yes! They very much do! They also want to know how it all is perceived by you. You should tell them this. We, as humans, should celebrate our diversity. We should make it a culture where it's seemless (as you put it, "able to be seen"). We should NOT make it hush hush. This is how things become swept under the rug and issues not addressed. The fact that you are here, discussing this, instead of with your manager and (hopefully) your director is a sign that they are missing the point. Diversity is great. Inclusion is better. Participation is best. Go bring these issues up with your manager with ideas on possible solutions. You can't complain about not having a better system without presenting a better system.

That said, it obviously feels to me like you have some sensitivity issues because of this, probably justifiably so. One of the cool things about tech is that when it comes down to it, it's the output that makes the "man" and not the skin color or their name or their religion or nationality. If you can write some clean, tested, code, I'm all for it! The fact that you are YOU, is even better! Why? Because I don't want a room full of white guys that just agree to what I propose. I want females, I want PoC, I want refugees, I want "I pulled myself out of poverty", I want "I would use this", I want "I care about the outcomes". Not in a cult like way, but in an empathetic to the customers problems way.

Some companies have put metrics around this. Hire so much diversity... hit 40% something-or-other... Ignore these false metrics that are doomed to failure. They aren't approaching the problem right. Let them do what they think is right unless you have a better solution. Keep just doing you and look at their efforts as a good, not a negative, even if their methods are naive.

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