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US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

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Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#61

Post by jujube3 »

trilbyglens wrote: post #36
khazhoux wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who in the hell is against it? Roughly half the country is against it! And ironically, it's often because they want "choice" in their medical care, despite the fact that health insurance is tied to your employment and you barely have any choices under your control anyway -- you go with the clinic or hospital that takes your plan, and you go with the doctor that's available.

It's such a complete lie that our current system confers any advantages whatsoever. It's a line trotted out by insurance lobbyists, then politicians, then shitty news media, and finally by the poor brainless voters themselves. If Americans had any international perspective at all it would be much harder to keep that fiction alive, but Americas generally are completely ignorant of how people live outside the us, and n…

Actually, Americans are ignorant of the outside world, but not in the way that you're painting. They generally think that Europe has socialized single-payer healthcare, which is mostly not true (a few European countries, like the UK, do, but most have an insurance-based system). They also think that most of the world has access to the quality of care that people do in the US (nope). They also think doctors and nurses get paid the same outside the US (far from it.) They think that government healthcare means that there will be nobody to say no to expensive procedures (very untrue: there will always be a bureaucrat scrutinizing how much is spent on a patient).

The media promotes all of these myths, with the eventual goal of a complete government takeover of health care.

We can add one bonus myth here too: the idea that the US healthcare system leaves people to die if they have no money and no insurance. Nope! If you show up at any emergency room, they cannot refuse treatment. And of course, getting insurance for the poor or lower-middle class is easier than ever due to Obamacare.

So while it's far from a perfect system, it's a lot better than the media paints it as. And the government alternatives are not utopian. See https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/02/private-heal...

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#62

Post by [deleted] »

lynx23 wrote: post #49
TechnicolorByte wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That we are all overweight is another. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_r... Obesity vs overweight (the former is surely a better predictor of health outcomes anyway) aside, we’re definitely higher than comparable nations, but I wouldn’t say significantly so.

The trick is to spread consumerism ads and fastfood chains all other the world, such that this list doesn't show a big difference. If you manage to pollute everyone else fast enough, statistics can be blurred to a point where there is obviously no reason to act.

[deleted]

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#63

Post by nivenkos »

silisili wrote: post #8

This isn't at all surprising, for multiple reasons. The entire insurance industry existing is a big one. That we are all overweight is another. I'm generally a very conservative person. But even I am for government funded healthcare. Who in the hell is against it? I've not met a single person completely against it, mostly just people against people abusing emergency rooms. Certain big media and politicians are agains…

> I'm generally a very conservative person. But even I am for government funded healthcare. Who in the hell is against it?

I'm European but there are major issues with waiting times, terribly low wages, strikes, ambulance provision, etc. in almost every country I've lived in.

Overall I think public healthcare is well worth it - in theory you can save a lot with one central purchaser, and even moreso if the government was willing to do drug discovery and production directly too.

But it is difficult to ensure future governments don't ruin it. It's kind of like why the unemployment funds and minimum wage negotiations being in the hands of trade unions instead of the government has worked out better in Sweden.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#64

Post by DoreenMichele »

"To catch up with other high-income countries, the administration and Congress would have to expand access to health care, act aggressively to control costs, and invest in health equity and social services we know can lead to a healthier population."

The U.S. has the highest rate of people with multiple chronic health conditions... and the highest obesity rate...

I think they are seriously missing something. Obesity is related in part to our built environment and car-centric lives forced on us to a large degree by our built environment. Pollution may be a root cause of multiple chronic conditions.

Just beefing up our health care system likely isn't sufficient.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#65

Post by forgetfreeman »

mcv wrote: post #28
silisili wrote: post #8

This isn't at all surprising, for multiple reasons. The entire insurance industry existing is a big one. That we are all overweight is another. I'm generally a very conservative person. But even I am for government funded healthcare. Who in the hell is against it? I've not met a single person completely against it, mostly just people against people abusing emergency rooms. Certain big media and politicians are agains…

Private insurance doesn't have to be bad. Netherland has private insurance, and it works fine. Admittedly we've got probably the most expensive healthcare system in Europe, but it's still about half of what the US pays. But it does need to be tightly regulated, and more importantly, the healthcare system itself needs to be regulated. There needs to be a drive to lower costs while increasing quality. And of course the…

It may not have to be bad but it is absolutely an unnecessary siphon of funds out of the healthcare system. Simply put every single ass in a seat at an insurance company is $N not being spent on providing actual healthcare.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#66

Post by 0xy »

smcl wrote: post #54
0xy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how 6.5%/year increases in budget over 12 years is "starving"? Also curious how you square "outperforming" with the worst ever waiting times for critical surgeries.

> Can you explain how 6.5%/year increases in budget Yes! It needs more. Glad to have cleared that up. > Also curious how you square "outperforming" ... This is the conclusion of the study in the article you're commenting on

France increased healthcare spending by 0.3%/year between 2010 and 2019.

UK is outpacing France's spending increases by 2,066%. How does the UK need over 20x more spending increases than its close neighbor, exactly?

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#67

Post by forgetfreeman »

lynx23 wrote: post #49
TechnicolorByte wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That we are all overweight is another. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_r... Obesity vs overweight (the former is surely a better predictor of health outcomes anyway) aside, we’re definitely higher than comparable nations, but I wouldn’t say significantly so.

The trick is to spread consumerism ads and fastfood chains all other the world, such that this list doesn't show a big difference. If you manage to pollute everyone else fast enough, statistics can be blurred to a point where there is obviously no reason to act.

Did that already. There's a pizza hut within line of site of the Great Pyramids at Giza.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#68

Post by jrockway »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #65
mcv wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private insurance doesn't have to be bad. Netherland has private insurance, and it works fine. Admittedly we've got probably the most expensive healthcare system in Europe, but it's still about half of what the US pays. But it does need to be tightly regulated, and more importantly, the healthcare system itself needs to be regulated. There needs to be a drive to lower costs while increasing quality. And of course the…

It may not have to be bad but it is absolutely an unnecessary siphon of funds out of the healthcare system. Simply put every single ass in a seat at an insurance company is $N not being spent on providing actual healthcare.

Some administrators are going to be necessary to run any sort of healthcare system. Just as an example, someone has to prepare and send each doctor a W-2 every year.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#69

Post by _vbnz »

tehCorner wrote: post #53
panny wrote: post #5

>the system is bad Doctors aren't paid when you are healthy. How would you suggest fixing such a system? Because if you figure it out, there's a whole system of auto mechanics that could probably benefit from the solution.

> Doctors aren't paid when you are healthy Isn't it worst that doctors are paid if you are not healthy? Doesn't it create an incentive for them to prevent you from being completely healthy? Anyway, most countries in Europe pay their doctors regardless of you health status and that money comes out directly of taxpayers' pockets whom most of them are 100% happy to make it that way

But doctors in Europe are paid a pittance in comparison.

Like less than a third or even a quarter of US wages.

That's the real issue - they will never want to take a hit to living standards. It was possible in the UK because it was directly after the war and the Blitz had killed hundreds of thousands of people, and there was a real threat of communism.

Whereas the USA is nowhere that situation today. Things are going very well for the majority of people so drastic change would be very hard.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#70

Post by forgetfreeman »

jujube3 wrote: post #61
trilbyglens wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's such a complete lie that our current system confers any advantages whatsoever. It's a line trotted out by insurance lobbyists, then politicians, then shitty news media, and finally by the poor brainless voters themselves. If Americans had any international perspective at all it would be much harder to keep that fiction alive, but Americas generally are completely ignorant of how people live outside the us, and n…

Actually, Americans are ignorant of the outside world, but not in the way that you're painting. They generally think that Europe has socialized single-payer healthcare, which is mostly not true (a few European countries, like the UK, do, but most have an insurance-based system). They also think that most of the world has access to the quality of care that people do in the US (nope). They also think doctors and nurses…

I literally watched a dude die waiting to be seen in an ER in the US. They are absolutely required to treat but nobody said anything about how they prioritize patients when the ER is busy. Some more news for you, you can't waltz into the hospital with any number of chronic or life threatening conditions and expect to get effective treatment. You'll get the bare minimum required to stabilize your condition in the moment then you're out the door. Not sure what you're stanning here.
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