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US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

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Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#31

Post by chmod600 »

silisili wrote: post #8

This isn't at all surprising, for multiple reasons. The entire insurance industry existing is a big one. That we are all overweight is another. I'm generally a very conservative person. But even I am for government funded healthcare. Who in the hell is against it? I've not met a single person completely against it, mostly just people against people abusing emergency rooms. Certain big media and politicians are agains…

I'm a conservative also.

Stuff that basically everyone needs to deal with should be out of pocket with tranparent ahead-of-time pricing. Doctors and occasional specialists, non-exotic meds, normal chronic conditions, etc. State covers/helps it if you can't (means testing with sliding scale, no cliff). Paying for stuff kinda sucks, but less so than brutal waste pulled out of your paycheck or taxes.

Financially major issues could be covered by private insurance or some government plan.

Vaccines subsidized by feds.

Invincibles aren't such a huge problem that we need to twist the whole system around for people who can pay but don't.

Done.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#32

Post by silisili »

khazhoux wrote: post #23
silisili wrote: post #8

This isn't at all surprising, for multiple reasons. The entire insurance industry existing is a big one. That we are all overweight is another. I'm generally a very conservative person. But even I am for government funded healthcare. Who in the hell is against it? I've not met a single person completely against it, mostly just people against people abusing emergency rooms. Certain big media and politicians are agains…

> Who in the hell is against it? Roughly half the country is against it! And ironically, it's often because they want "choice" in their medical care, despite the fact that health insurance is tied to your employment and you barely have any choices under your control anyway -- you go with the clinic or hospital that takes your plan, and you go with the doctor that's available.

This is an extremely popular liberal talking point. I do not believe it to be true.

The article linked below has it at 60/40. But that's just a simple yes/no survey. When you probe the 40, they are mostly for it too, just with extreme reservations. Talk to some. It's definitely not an 'I got mine, let everyone else die' as is painted.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/3826215-57-percent-sup...

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#33

Post by TechnicolorByte »

silisili wrote: post #8

This isn't at all surprising, for multiple reasons. The entire insurance industry existing is a big one. That we are all overweight is another. I'm generally a very conservative person. But even I am for government funded healthcare. Who in the hell is against it? I've not met a single person completely against it, mostly just people against people abusing emergency rooms. Certain big media and politicians are agains…

> That we are all overweight is another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_r...

Obesity vs overweight (the former is surely a better predictor of health outcomes anyway) aside, we’re definitely higher than comparable nations, but I wouldn’t say significantly so.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#34

Post by MisterBastahrd »

silisili wrote: post #8

This isn't at all surprising, for multiple reasons. The entire insurance industry existing is a big one. That we are all overweight is another. I'm generally a very conservative person. But even I am for government funded healthcare. Who in the hell is against it? I've not met a single person completely against it, mostly just people against people abusing emergency rooms. Certain big media and politicians are agains…

The entire insurance industry, and almost all of the industries who make money from it, are against it, for one. There are many doctors and nurses who would also be incensed if you told them that they had to take less pay EVEN IF you also immediately eliminated all their education debts. Nurses in particular are heavily incentivized to work overtime because they usually work insane 12 hour shifts to begin with.

You also can't reform it if you aren't going to touch the pharmaceutical industry. There are medicines that cost $3K a month here that cost $0.50 in Africa for the same dosage. I can understand that the US is funding the military to a ridiculous degree to maintain its global hegemony... but I can't understand why voters think it's a good idea to allow pharmaceutical manufacturers to gouge the crap out of people.

Nothing about medical care is a traditional manufacturer / consumer relationship. I'd rather nationalize the pharma companies and all medical patents for medicines or devices which are sold more than a factor of 5x in the US over its lowest price.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#35

Post by smcl »

0xy wrote: post #24
silisili wrote: post #8

This isn't at all surprising, for multiple reasons. The entire insurance industry existing is a big one. That we are all overweight is another. I'm generally a very conservative person. But even I am for government funded healthcare. Who in the hell is against it? I've not met a single person completely against it, mostly just people against people abusing emergency rooms. Certain big media and politicians are agains…

It's a fallacy to claim US healthcare is not "government funded". Aside from that, Canadian wait times for surgery are substantially worse than the United States (even before they stopped necessary surgeries during lockdown). [1] The amount of Canadians who visit the United States has increased dramatically over the last 10 years, many of which seek services which are simply not available at all in Canada -- such as…

The NHS in the UK is after a decade of sabotage by a Conservative government who would like nothing more than to see it scrapped and replaced with private healthcare insurance like the US has. As it stands it is a system that is being starved of resources and yet it is still outperforming the US.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#36

Post by trilbyglens »

khazhoux wrote: post #23
silisili wrote: post #8

This isn't at all surprising, for multiple reasons. The entire insurance industry existing is a big one. That we are all overweight is another. I'm generally a very conservative person. But even I am for government funded healthcare. Who in the hell is against it? I've not met a single person completely against it, mostly just people against people abusing emergency rooms. Certain big media and politicians are agains…

> Who in the hell is against it? Roughly half the country is against it! And ironically, it's often because they want "choice" in their medical care, despite the fact that health insurance is tied to your employment and you barely have any choices under your control anyway -- you go with the clinic or hospital that takes your plan, and you go with the doctor that's available.

It's such a complete lie that our current system confers any advantages whatsoever. It's a line trotted out by insurance lobbyists, then politicians, then shitty news media, and finally by the poor brainless voters themselves.

If Americans had any international perspective at all it would be much harder to keep that fiction alive, but Americas generally are completely ignorant of how people live outside the us, and not interested in finding out.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#37

Post by otikik »

Of course it does. Three reasons:

* A big chunk of the money goes to private insurance, never materializing into “health”.

* Health centers being run as a business, not a national necessity (like roads or the military)

* An obscurity in health practice pricing that would be illegal in any other activity.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#39

Post by 0xy »

smcl wrote: post #35
0xy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fallacy to claim US healthcare is not "government funded". Aside from that, Canadian wait times for surgery are substantially worse than the United States (even before they stopped necessary surgeries during lockdown). [1] The amount of Canadians who visit the United States has increased dramatically over the last 10 years, many of which seek services which are simply not available at all in Canada -- such as…

The NHS in the UK is after a decade of sabotage by a Conservative government who would like nothing more than to see it scrapped and replaced with private healthcare insurance like the US has. As it stands it is a system that is being starved of resources and yet it is still outperforming the US.

Can you explain how 6.5%/year increases in budget over 12 years is "starving"? Also curious how you square "outperforming" with the worst ever waiting times for critical surgeries.

Re: US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes

#40

Post by Zagill »

0xy wrote: post #24
silisili wrote: post #8

This isn't at all surprising, for multiple reasons. The entire insurance industry existing is a big one. That we are all overweight is another. I'm generally a very conservative person. But even I am for government funded healthcare. Who in the hell is against it? I've not met a single person completely against it, mostly just people against people abusing emergency rooms. Certain big media and politicians are agains…

It's a fallacy to claim US healthcare is not "government funded". Aside from that, Canadian wait times for surgery are substantially worse than the United States (even before they stopped necessary surgeries during lockdown). [1] The amount of Canadians who visit the United States has increased dramatically over the last 10 years, many of which seek services which are simply not available at all in Canada -- such as…

I find it interesting that whenever socialized healthcare in the US is mentioned, there's always someone eager to point out the failings of Canada's and the UK's systems, yet I never hear mention of any of the other socialized healthcare systems that basically every highly developed nation maintains. I truthfully don't know any statistics on this sort of thing, so I couldn't tell you how good Finland or Greece or Spain are when it comes to healthcare. You'd think there would be relevant criticism to bring up elsewhere if the whole idea is flawed at it's core - otherwise, who cares if Canada's implementation of the concept sucks? Let's learn from their mistakes and others' successes.
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