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Gattaca is still pertinent 25 years later

nature.com

281–290 of 388 posts

Re: Gattaca is still pertinent 25 years later

#281
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eugenics, as a term, to have meaning, is an extreme of breeding behavior. It isn't just regular assortative mating among local populations. That's circular logic. The whole point of the argument is that eugenics (as it is normally understood) is of a piece with regular assortive mating; people look for good aspects in a partner all the time, and there's no clear sharp line between that and what we normally call eug…

https://www.britannica.com/science/eugenics-genetics > The term eugenics was coined in 1883 by British explorer and natural scientist Francis Galton, who, influenced by Charles Darwin’s theory of natural selection, advocated a system that would allow “the more suitable races or strains of blood a better chance of prevailing speedily over the less suitable.” Eugenics is a societal phenomenon. Which is why arranged mar…

I think it's the opposite. In an arranged marriage the spouses are selected by their family irrespective of the merits of the kids involved. Free choice means you will select the spouse based on the merit of the spouse. I think it's much more likely to lead to gene selection.

If beautiful people marry beautiful people and ugly people marry ugly people, you effectively get a sort of breeding (I know we don't like to use these animal terms but that's kind of what it is). Now you can refuse to call a natural preference "eugenics" but the reality is that you are still expressing a preference for some characters that you think are desirable and your progeniture is likely to inherit some of those characters.

This was of course a lot less prevalent in a society that lived in small villages with very little mobility (and therefore very little mating choice), which is why I think it's a process that only kicked in at the XX century. My guess is that we will see the effect in this century. Works with dogs, should work with humans.

Re: Gattaca is still pertinent 25 years later

#282
post #147

Eugenism is inevitable. You can't stop parents trying to get the best life for their children, that's pretty much their top priority. We don't like to frame it that way but we are already there with pre-natal tests. Even the selection of mating partner is a form of eugenics. College graduates only marrying college graduates, repeat that for many generations and it is bound to have an effect.

[deleted]

Re: Gattaca is still pertinent 25 years later

#283
post #147

Eugenism is inevitable. You can't stop parents trying to get the best life for their children, that's pretty much their top priority. We don't like to frame it that way but we are already there with pre-natal tests. Even the selection of mating partner is a form of eugenics. College graduates only marrying college graduates, repeat that for many generations and it is bound to have an effect.

They can try, but over time reversion to the mean wipes it away. Inevitably the family will not produce the smartest or best looking or whatever other quality they have selected for.

Re: Gattaca is still pertinent 25 years later

#284
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.britannica.com/science/eugenics-genetics > The term eugenics was coined in 1883 by British explorer and natural scientist Francis Galton, who, influenced by Charles Darwin’s theory of natural selection, advocated a system that would allow “the more suitable races or strains of blood a better chance of prevailing speedily over the less suitable.” Eugenics is a societal phenomenon. Which is why arranged mar…

I think it's the opposite. In an arranged marriage the spouses are selected by their family irrespective of the merits of the kids involved. Free choice means you will select the spouse based on the merit of the spouse. I think it's much more likely to lead to gene selection. If beautiful people marry beautiful people and ugly people marry ugly people, you effectively get a sort of breeding (I know we don't like to u…

Everything you say makes sense, but none of it has to do with eugenics. It has to do with assortative mating. Eugenics is about socially driven desirable trait selection (where a trait can be what kind of family you come from). The social is the most important part. Not the trait selection.

Individual trait selection allows a multitude of traits to thrive. Social trait selection tends not to.

Re: Gattaca is still pertinent 25 years later

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mike Judge with his Idiocracy and Office Space is almost like someone had a crystal ball for early 21st century.

Office Space is pure genius and I was flabbergasted not to see it more popular. I am glad Judge got much bigger break with Silicon Valley.

“Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings?”

Re: Gattaca is still pertinent 25 years later

#286

I’m glad many of you enjoyed the movie. I watched it for the first time last month and did not enjoy it personally. I think the thing that kept making me not believe the narrative was the assumption that you could somehow control how your DNA was left behind. Your body leaves behind hair and skin cells and eyelashes and whatever constantly. No amount of scrubbing like he does in the movie will help that. Also the ide…

I'm not sure about that, possibly he put some sort of special make-up/glue-ish stuff on his face to try to seal it in, and his clothes caught the rest of it? He's seen putting stuff in his hair, probably for that purpose. Anyway, how sensitive are detectors in real life? Remember, you need enough intact genetic material to figure out who it is, it's not like detecting anthrax or something where you can just look for a few short conserved snippets. I imagine it's not something PCR works especially well on, so you might not be able to amplify it at all.

Re: Gattaca is still pertinent 25 years later

#287
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I noticed those dropship scenes on a rewatch a couple of years ago. I think when I watched it as a kid it was on a CRT on cable television and you couldn't see the details as much. Plus, I was a kid. On that note, I just rewatched the original Alien and there's really only one or two shots that looks kind of bad or goofy. Holds up so well for a film from 1979 with what would be a lower range budget in today's money (…

Yes, and also: imagine Alien in the hands of a director with access to today's budget and CGI: it would completely ditch any ambience, pace and characterizations in favor of showing one -- nay, thousands -- of monsters and chase scenes.

Well you don't need to look far, that's one of the problems with films from the exact same director such as Alien: Covenant.

Re: Gattaca is still pertinent 25 years later

#288
I'm perhaps in the minority of people here, but I didn't like Gattaca, because I thought it actually didn't approach any of the nuance of the genetics discussion, instead opting for a pretty inane oversimplification. Perhaps it makes for an entertaining movie, but it's not a deep philosophical piece.

In the movie, the "bad guys" believed that your potential is limited by your genetics. Which is trivially true. But, weirdly, the movie decides this is the thing that needs to be disproven, and goes on to show the main character "overcoming his potential", which is, by the definition of the word "potential", not possible. Showing a fictional character swimming faster than he's supposed to be able to doesn't persuade me that people can overcome their potential.

As someone with a disorder which has a genetic component, I don't feel that anyone is doing me any favors by this naive polyanna-ism. There are things I cannot do as a result of my genetics, and it would be good for no one, including me, to assume otherwise. In fact, not understanding my own limitations has been one of the most destructive forces in my life, and identifying and acknowledging those limitations has had immense positive results for me.

And very few people, even among literal eugenicists, believe that genetics are the only thing that determines our potential. Most people understand that both nature and nurture are components of one's potential.

So basically, Gattaca is a movie that disprove something that is true, and that even the bad guys don't believe is the whole picture.

Where the bad guys in the movie go wrong isn't that genetics determine what your potential is (they do), but what to do about it. In the movie, a person's genetics are used to determine all sorts of far-reaching effects about their life.

But if we understand that both nature (genetics) and nurture play a part, then it becomes obvious that just because a person has optimal genetics for a certain trait, doesn't mean they'll actually reach the full potential of that trait. Someone with suboptimal genes for that trait might more fully realize the potential of those genes, and surpass the person with better genes for that trait.

And further, we might some day be able to associate genes with traits to the point where we know what genes are optimal for certain traits, but it would be extreme hubris to think we really understand what traits are optimal for a job or task. At my college the math requirements for a CS degree exceeded the math requirements for a math minor: and I barely ever use above 8th grade math in my almost two decades as a programmer. If we could test genetic predisposition for math ability, testing programmers for those genes would be counterproductive: not because programmers might overcome their potential for math ability, but because math isn't really all that relevant to programming. It's a losing game trying to align these traits better: the needs of jobs change over time, so the genetically-ideal candidate for a job today won't be the genetically-ideal candidate when the job changes tomorrow.

The movie is noticeably sparse in its explanations of how they define "intelligence", for example. And defining "intelligence" is a pretty difficult task.

The real-life bad guys (eugenicists) get this wrong too: certain races have traits that others don't (white people are most susceptible to skin cancer, for example!) but we have no way of weighing the traits of each race against another race to determine that any one race is superior.

And if we get down to my personal belief on this, it's that everyone is worthy of love, full stop (unconditionally). Conditioning your care for another human being on their genetics is the antithesis of that.

That doesn't mean, however, that we should pretend that genetic advantages don't exist. As I shared before, I have some less-than-ideal genes, and that's a real thing I have to consider in my day-to-day, and a real consideration for me should I ever choose to have children. Of course I'm still a valid human with all the rights that come with that. But that doesn't mean I can somehow overcome those genes.

Re: Gattaca is still pertinent 25 years later

#289
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is basically advocating some kind of population control or eugenics policy I think this says more about the viewer than the film.

The problem it raises is: only idiots are having kids so in the future everyone is an idiot. The opening scene is literally a generic portrayal of trailer trash having 8 kids and you didn’t get that implication at all? Wow your a real saint. What did you think the implications of the film were?

You could also view it as a satire of that very idea - here's this absurd future that people are afraid of, it'd suck, but anyone who believes in this being a realistic possibility is likely a fool. No society could actually run if humans devolved to that level and very, very few people are as unintelligent as the characters in that film.

Re: Gattaca is still pertinent 25 years later

#290
post #5

I understand this article appeared in Nature Genetics and so explores the genetics aspect of the movie (which is admittedly heavily emphasized, starting with the G-A-T-C letters highlighted in the title and opening credits), but I always thought it is about the practice of discrimination in general, regardless of what "quality" is chosen to put people in sets of "A" and "B". How literally should the audience take thi…

The thing I liked most in some ways about the film is that society is in some ways correct: going to space with a heart defect is a real issue and we already exclude people based on such issues for very real and valid reasons. Yet, we can't help but root for the protagonist who has their dream denied through no fault of their own but instead the choices of their society and parents. Compelling. If taken in a less extreme sense I think it's a good film for reflecting how much much genetics does determine what we can do, even today, and the reality that many of these limits do ipso facto exclude us from our dreams. As much of life is learning to live with this reality as it is striving to achieve our dreams. The film, of course, presents us with a character who cannot live with it (although with limitations not from genetics) and ultimately commits suicide, and another character who achieves their dream but for whom we do not see the possibly morbid consequences as it is the end of the film.
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