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Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

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Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#641

Post by asdadsdad »

Volundr wrote: post #514
asdadsdad wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is much more than a one person's problem, but it's a general issue that many older people with well-established lives don't sympathize with unfortunately. As much as others can deny, work is source of most people's friendships, relationships, mentorships, and other social interactions. There's hardly a substitute for that outside.

> This is much more than a one person's problem 100% agree, that was poor phrasing on my part, it was meant to communicate where the responsibility for fixing the problem lies, not claim the problem was isolated to a single, or even small number of people. > There's hardly a substitute for that outside. Strongly, 100% disagree. Work friendships tend to be fleeting, causing job loss or retirement to be isolating event…

I see what you mean now. Good points.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#642

Post by watwut »

mgraf1 wrote: post #522
dmitriid wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once working, you spend 8h a day with a group of people. Until they, or you: - quit and move to another company in 2-3 years - move to another department in the company - get fired Then what?

Then you keep in touch with them. The best friend I've made as an adult was met through work. Then he took another job, and I moved across the country when I went remote. We still keep in touch and occasionally travel to visit each other.

The kind of person who can't make and keep friends unless they are forced to work in the same office won't. It that person could keeping touch and would pick friends able to keep in touch, they would keep.in touch with whoever they studied with or was in their hometown.

But, we are talking about someone who need coercion to make friends. And they can be nice super ethical person, but there is that skill they don't have.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#643

Post by jemmyw »

doutunlined wrote: post #618
jemmyw wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it require a lot of planning? I do this, usually it's "bored, coffee break?" "Yep" or I ask a question on slack and the other party says "call?"

Because IRL you're effectively always in call. Not sure whats hard to understand about the difference.

I just don't see the difference. When I worked in an office I'd wander over to a colleague and say "coffee?" Now I open a dm and say "coffee call?"

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#644

Post by dsugarman »

deely3 wrote: post #585
dsugarman wrote: post #532

Far too many of these posts since the pandemic, it's OK if you personally feel more productive at home but if you seriously can't understand the benefits of working together physically then you have a serious mental block. There's some emotional reason why you don't want to hear why people find office work productive. You should at least be able to recite an opposing argument if not empathize with it (let alone agree…

> you seriously can't understand the benefits of working together physically then you have a serious mental block. But we working together, just remotely. Could you explain please, for us with "serious mental block" why do you feel that you need to be near me physically to do any work?

There's over 600 comments on this thread and you came here to say that you're still missing a single argument for in-office work? I can't help you through your mental block, only you can and it's hard work for sure. Also not sure the nature of your question, no one on this thread said they need to be physically near you to do any work, certainly not me.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#645

Post by watwut »

porker wrote: post #564
Gigachad wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I know is that those first few years of my career in office were the best years of my life. I’ve been scrambling around trying everything to fill the gap left by remote work, I go to meetups, I have family and friends, none of it is as significant as working together with people for the majority of your day. I’m going back to the office and I won’t take another job that has most people remote.

> What I know is that those first few years of my career in office In that particular office. Ive had spells of time like that. Mine were at universities working together in labs. Ive worked software jobs in companies and startups where the developers sat in the same room all day and didn't speak. Completely unsociable. I found that much more soul destroying than remote working.

And that is waaay better then toxic environment. I will take a social, it is manageable. But seeing someone humiliate or verbally abuse or whatever other on daily basis sux. And it sux even when it is mild, it sux when the place is run by cliques and what not.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#646

Post by golergka »

no_wizard wrote: post #633
golergka wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No you don’t need to hire in traditionally geographical Silicon Valley areas every time or by default, but you don’t have to go all the way to latam either. I'm sure all the latin american developers are super hyped about this advice not to hire them.

It’s not that. It’s about hiring developers with the same divinity and respect across the board. It’s meant as a counter ti the idea of hiring them just because they’re “cheaper”

There's nothing even remotely disrespectful in hiring someone because they offer the services for a cheaper price.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#647

Post by Volundr »

jltsiren wrote: post #605
Volundr wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not an individual problem. It's an issue that affects the entire society. Social isolation feeds many undesirable things, such as political polarization and extremism. If a society wants to survive, it has to deal with the issue somehow. Agreed, and I think the best way is for people to realize that "the people I chat with at the water-cooler" are not my friends, and take action based on that. Job loss and…

The friends you meet at work are no different from the friends you meet at dance/martial arts class. They are tied to an activity, and if you quit the activity, you are likely to lose most of them. The core problem is that remote work can easily mean 8 hours/day of social isolation. Especially because those are the hours people have the most energy to try new things. If people spend that time avoiding social contacts…

There is no default. There never was. This is exactly the idea I am saying we need to combat. Building lasting relationships takes time and reciprocated effort. The people who want to WFH aren't going to become "friend candidates" because they are forced into the office. The are either already "friend candidates" prepared to reciprocate advances, or they aren't interested. Remote isn't the barrier here. Physical proximity just has the potential to give someone the illusion of a connection that hasn't actually been formed. Once someone realizes this and learns to put effort into their social connections, they are far less likely to end up isolated than just hoping showing up at work will make the difference.

And that is where dance/martial arts class is different. Everyone there has decided to show up. Your also a lot less likely to get laid off from book club than your job.

If people want to work together in the same space 8 hours a day more power too them! Go have a good time in the office and let us WFH folks be. But if there aren't enough who want to be in the office to satisfy the office dwellers it doesn't become the WFH folk's responsibility to keep them company. If we are open to friendship, we already were.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#648

Post by Gigachad »

idonotknowwhy wrote: post #637
Gigachad wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My story is very similar to yours. Used to be ok with remote work but then I had a break up last year and need to get back to the office. Unfortunately all the tech jobs are in other cities of Australia so I can only get remote jobs. Made the decision this month to pack up everything and move to Melbourne so I can work in the office among other things.

Welcome. Plenty of 3 day in the office and even 5 day in the office tech jobs here. Also great cafes you can work from on the remote work days. PT and urban sprawl sucks though, which is why I did the opposite and work remotely 100% now.

I'm from Adelaide. PT is effectively non existent and urban sprawl is worse. Melbourne is like a utopian society to me. I'm quite happy to live in an apartment near the CBD and take the train in. It blows my mind they come every 5 minutes, I'm used to trains coming every 30 minutes or just not running at all half the time.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#649

Post by 6510 »

What a lot of people forget (including myself at times) is that a very high percentage of polite & friendly coworkers behave that way ONLY because of the contractual settings. IRL they wouldn't give you the time a day.

Funny story: I had a coworker one time who would come talk to me every shift (I never went to them), they wanted to know every detail about my existence, pick my brain, had surprisingly interesting things to say and tell, made funny jokes, laughed at my jokes. We would revisit topics and talk about them some more or exchange new found insights. Then when I quit I asked if we should stay in touch and the response was: why the hell would I want that? I'm like, why do you come talk with me every day? Oh I was just being polite. Apparently it was important for all of those people they didn't like to like them. It was entirely political!

I wasn't hurt or anything. More like amazed by the quality of acting. A format like: "Oh? you like pokemon! I like pokemon too! Let me impress you with my perfectly faked pokemon knowledge while thinking: o god, another one of those pokemon people & if only I could remember where I put my pokemon shirt.

These aren't real people people.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#650

Post by senderista »

dudul wrote: post #27
eerikkivistik wrote: post #6

Some problems are solved faster by multiple people getting together in front of a whiteboard and drawing. For those kinds of problems it’s useful to have people in the same room until we have AR solutions that can fill that need. Also for some people, not leaving their home caused significant issues in their performance. People aren’t solitary creatures, so for some - the office fills that role. For others, home offi…

Ha the good old tale of people gathering around the whiteboard to solve hard problem. IME, it's usually 30/60 minutes during which the Architect listens to himself, draws some nice boxes and arrows, overlooks all the edge cases and nuances and then everyone goes back to their open space desk. And the next day you realize that the solution doesn't work and you start a Jira comment thread.

If you’ve ever watched academics at work, this is one of the most common ways the sausage gets made.

Source: worked in various CS labs for a few years

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