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U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

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Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#591
post #102

I am so tired of China being used to stoke American jingoism, of politicians making a contest of who is really 'tough on China' and, most horrifyingly, of seeing other USians online practically salivate as they fantasize about a war with China. It's some cold war boogieman horseshit. And it's depressing to watch here on Hacker News, too, any comments that question the beating of those war drums go dead. Yesterday I h…

China is not simply rolled out as a boogeyman. Apart from any of their ambitions, at minimum the worlds reliance on them for various resources and manufacturing capacity almost exclusively has, in the last 2.5 years, been revealed as an extreme flaw and risk to global economic stability when that resource and manufacturing pipeline is disrupted. That is, at a bare minimum, a serious problem that will take years to so…

Why are you worried about the world relying on China? The global economy was actually stabilized by China's zero-covid policy for the past few years because although lockdowns were disruptive, the death and disability of workers is an even greater threat. We now live in an even more unstable time now that China has abandoned this policy since the international community has decided to embrace living with covid.

And God forbid a country outside the west hasn't been completely subjugated by it. Why exactly do you think China's goals aren't aligned with the West? Have you read anything about what imperialism was doing to China (and literally everywhere else on Earth not being settled by Europeans with few exceptions) during the 100 years of humiliation? Do you honestly expect a nation to take that in stride without retribution? I think a lot of younger folks like myself forget that colonialism was alive and well until around 50 years ago, which is the blink of an eye in the long-run.

Sure, you can point to Tibet and Xinjiang as signs of hypocrisy, but I counter: where did all the native americans go in the USA and canada? What was done by the Belgians in the Congo? What was done by the French in Indochina? At least the Uyghurs and Tibetans are actually still alive in large numbers of healthy individuals. Even in China, minorities get special treatment. For example, they were exempt from the One-Child Policy. I don't think there's any example of that in western nations. In the US, black people get the privilege of seeing their children murdered at the hands of the police for minor offenses and disobedience! :)

The war drums are beating and it's fascinating to see otherwise brilliant people fall victim to what is very clearly the propaganda being turned up to manufacture popular support for the genocide of billions under the name of "freedom", "democracy" and a "rules-based system". Let's do an exercise: which nuclear states have the weakest policies preventing the use of nuclear weapons? It's the United States, France, the UK, and Pakistan. Even Putin has stated multiple times on the record (even in late 2022) that Russia will not be the first to use nuclear weapons. India and China are strictly under a policy of no first-use.

Let's remember history: the United States is the only state to ever have used nuclear weapons to deliberately kill people. And remember doubly: those bombs were dropped for demonstration purposes, not out of necessity, even a USA general said so.

Clearly, greed and arrogance will be the downfall of Western imperialism. South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines, etc. are all de facto USA asian tributary states under USA hegemony, but nobody wants to acknowledge that.

I hope that in the coming 5 - 10 years once you have the luxury to bear witness to western militaries indiscriminately genociding billions of civilians in the name of "maintaining a rules based order" that you realize you cannot wash the blood from your hands.

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#592
post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they actually apologize? I thought all they said is that it was a weather balloon. Regardless, I'm very interested in what hardware was actually on this thing. Hopefully the public gets a summary of what USN pulls up during recovery.

“… the uncharacteristic speed and contrition of China’s statement as indications that it was probably a genuine error…” https://www.economist.com/china/2023/02/03/how-a-balloon-bur...

They put out a statement a few hours ago whining that it was shot down so I wouldn't take that "apology" for much.

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#593
post #338

I have been in "no politics, no news" mode for over a month. I try to do this about once a year. I have yet to tell my wife I do it, but when I am on this limited media consumption she always comments how pleasant I am to be around. I think it is a good thing for all of us to do once in a while, until 80 years ago most news was at best three or four days old, go back 120 years and you're getting only last weeks top t…

Sputnik 2.0 It's a serious warning that the U.S. is dangerously behind China when it comes to balloon technology. Note also, balloons are one way of colonizing Venus (floating high in the atmosphere without having to approach the dangerously hot surface). Clearly we need a Venus Balloon Program to show who's the technological leader on this planet, just like with the Apollo Mission. Mars is for wimps, real explorers…

Sorry but I find “ that the U.S. is dangerously behind” laughable. A ballon around so your conclusion is to draw conclusions on the advances of nation states.

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the system is designed in a way that you have neither a say nor healthy representation America is the most powerful civilisation in the history of humanity. In almost every election, nonvoters could swing the outcome. On almost every issue, practically nobody reaches out to their representatives. Participation is hard. Many of us have more important matters to tend to. That’s fine. But don’t characterise participat…

*Nonvoters in a select few swing states could swing the outcome. (At least in regard to presidential elections--for local elections you have a point!) Edit: for downvoters, please note that I say this not to encourage apathy, but because I would like this problem to be fixed!

> for local elections you have a point

Also for most Congressional and state elections, as well as referenda.

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#595
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe the USAF and rest of the military and 3 letter agencies had not already intercepted/jammed/hacked the comms link? By letting it saunter all the way across they also probably got a lot of good info on its capabilities.

I don’t think they jammed it, considering how high it was. Intercepted .. I mean, China can use strong encryption too.

They can use strong encryption, but can they protect their private keys?

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the system is designed in a way that you have neither a say nor healthy representation America is the most powerful civilisation in the history of humanity. In almost every election, nonvoters could swing the outcome. On almost every issue, practically nobody reaches out to their representatives. Participation is hard. Many of us have more important matters to tend to. That’s fine. But don’t characterise participat…

It's not that participation is hard , it's that more and more see it as completely ineffective. Every year more of my friends and family abstain from voting. The system is broken, many choose not to play a fixed game.

> more and more see it as completely ineffective

Voter participation has almost monotonically increased over our country’s history [1], and presently stands near a historic high [2].

> many choose not to play a fixed game

The fix is how many believe this.

Which is fine. I don’t think everyone must vote, and if someone doesn’t even understand the system, I struggle to see how their vote adds information. That doesn’t change that shockingly trivial organization and deliberateness can yield results.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_Stat...

[2] https://ballotpedia.org/Election_results,_2022:_Analysis_of_...

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#597
post #102

I am so tired of China being used to stoke American jingoism, of politicians making a contest of who is really 'tough on China' and, most horrifyingly, of seeing other USians online practically salivate as they fantasize about a war with China. It's some cold war boogieman horseshit. And it's depressing to watch here on Hacker News, too, any comments that question the beating of those war drums go dead. Yesterday I h…

As a taiwanese who lurks on hacker news for many years but when I saw this post I had to make an account. You are dead wrong, China is an enemy of the free world, pure and simple. South Koreans and Ukrainians would agree with me here. Especially since China has declared no limit friendship with russia

Taiwan, South Korea, and Ukraine are all de facto western tributary states. I think you should investigate the actual reasons why China was founded, and maybe read up on the 100 years of humiliation. Why do you think western nations are functionally different as they were 100 years ago? Ultimately capitalism will serve to exploit and destroy Taiwanese people, save a few rich business owners

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t you expect video to surface of f-22s in action?

F-22s we’re designed to guide weapons to targets. Ukraine launches a few rockets and a stealth f-22 off the coast can guide it in. Something like this seems plausible here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62500560 There are some alternative theories (small drones painting targets), but imo it’s just as plausible a stealth plane 50 miles away gave a missile some coordinates

What do you mean by "guide it in"?

Resisting a crass joke here as well

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#599
post #338

I have been in "no politics, no news" mode for over a month. I try to do this about once a year. I have yet to tell my wife I do it, but when I am on this limited media consumption she always comments how pleasant I am to be around. I think it is a good thing for all of us to do once in a while, until 80 years ago most news was at best three or four days old, go back 120 years and you're getting only last weeks top t…

I ignore the majority of it myself. Maybe I'm a pessimist but there is little I can do to make an impact on geopolitics. I want to spend my energy on the things I can control and little energy on anything else. I'm much happier being completely unaware of whatever may be happening with the world.

I would like that privilege as well, but unfortunately the stock market moves based on geopolitical happenings.

Re: U.S. military shoots down suspected Chinese surveillance balloon

#600

This is dumb. Same airship design has been seen around the world for years, https://twitter.com/BalloonSciDan/status/1479218147098038278 There are many companies building and launching balloon airships of similar size. The US weather service alone puts hundreds of balloons over China, https://www.weather.gov/jetstream/radiosondes

I probably agree. Allowing the rival to surveil you to an extent is not a bad thing. You want to reduce informational asymmetries because rival leadership often fills in the fog of war with assumptions of malevolence which then leads to escalation risk. It's a tale as old as time in the history of geopolitics and cold war rivalries.

The fact they shot down the balloon after it left airspace rather than just as it entered suggests it was a response to the jingoistic media circus and domestic politicking, ie not wanting to look weak compared to hawkish Republicans, rather than anything with a real calculated military purpose.

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