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The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

efinancialcareers.com

571–580 of 595 posts

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe that reputation has caught up to them. It did. Comp is nowhere near FAANG and the work culture is still stuck in the 90's. Go to any college and talk to students looking for internships. Finance firms are nowhere near the top of their list.

Curious - what's at the top of their list now? Do they still want FAANG jobs after all the layoffs?

I'd say HFT/prop trading/market making/hedge funds, since those are the only places that are hiring right now and pay good money.

The usual destinations for smart and motivated new grads are (not counting very early startups/making your own company):

1. Top tier HFT/prop firm (Jane Street, HRT, Jump, etc.)

2. Meta, larger unicorns like Stripe, Databricks, etc.

3. Google

4. Amazon, Microsoft, etc.

Obviously im leaving out a lot of places but this is generally what I've seen.

Id say for most people FAANG is still the top option, and for people that want to shoot beyond FAANG, trading firms are probably the next target.

If you were including very early startups in this list, I've noticed that the smartest people often join promising startups as an early engineer, or make their own company. I'd put them above trading firms, but the risk is way higher.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you ask most financial institutions they would say the service they provide is "liquidity". I've honestly never understood this. Economics 101 teaches us that artificially manipulating supply (liquidity) is at direct odds with a free market's ability to do price discovery. If there is effectively infinite supply of any security (because all these high frequency firms are instantly hedging out the risk against th…

HFTs and other market makers are time - and risk -shifting supply & demand. In a functioning market, you can always find someone else to take the other side of the trade if you wait long enough , but you may not be able to find them now. Particularly in market panics, where all the buyers tend to disappear at once. What a market maker does is say "Sure, I'll take the other side of the trade - right now, at this price…

> HFTs and other market makers are time- and risk-shifting supply & demand. In a functioning market, you can always find someone else to take the other side of the trade if you wait long enough, but you may not be able to find them now. Particularly in market panics, where all the buyers tend to disappear at once.

Time shifting risk would be perfectly fine if market makers had to play by the same rules as everyone else in the market, but they don't. They get to ignore certain rules, which results in distorted prices because they can effectively accept infinite risk over an infinite length of time.

Let's say there's suddenly a run-up of $WEN and I, as a retail investor, want to short it because I think the price will surely come back down eventually. If it continues to go up, ultimately I get margin called and have a very short period of time to produce a lot of money to keep that trade open, otherwise I'm liquidated. There is a (risk * time) maximum before I, the retail investor, ultimately go out of business.

Market makers are exempt from this. They are legally permitted to short stock by conjuring phantom shares from thin air without having to locate borrows to satiate the buying demand during the run-up and wait effectively an infinite amount of time to repurchase the shares. There is no limit to their (risk * time) budget. Better yet, when the underlying company ultimately goes bankrupt from the stock being cellar boxed into the ground, the market maker can just wrap up all the worthless, sub-penny shares into a zombie holding company which lives forever, so they have never close the trade and actually pay taxes on the ill-gotten gains. Meanwhile, nobody seems to bat an eye at tens of billions of "securities sold, not yet purchased" on the market maker's balance sheet, because hey, as long as the SEC remains a wet noodle thanks to regulatory capture, they'll never get charged with fraud and the music keeps playing.

It's a system that has been deliberately structured to screw over average retail investors and concentrate wealth behind a few large market making firms, which incredulously all have their own hedge funds (which is somehow not seen as a hilariously brazen conflict of interest). Whenever anyone asks why all this complexity is necessary, the "We provide liquidity, so you can trade right now, for free!" line is trotted out and they hope you go away so they can continue running their shell game. Our markets have become addicted to this fake liquidity, which is ultimately backed by an infinitely expanding risk balloon. As long as the balloon never pops, the game is still on.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#573

The real issue seems to be that C++ jobs pay 2-4x less than other jobs. Why would I suffer through arcane template compilation errors when I can make 3x more writing basic JS? I actually find C++ really fun but I don't see much opportunities in it right now.

At least at the companies that the article is mentioning (Citadel, for example) the pay for coding in c++ will likely be 3x _more_ than writing some basic JS.

New grad packages are usually in the 4XX-5XX range.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#574
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you start from a base of modern C++, embrace the standard library and newer, safer data structures, it's a pleasure! I write software in probably a dozen languages, including C++, and using the features/STL in C++17/C++20 in no way makes using C++ a "pleasure", it simply makes using C++ "less painful". If I want to present information processing applications to users, it's C#/Java (or Kotlin, or Scala, or F#) wi…

Have a gut feeling that polyglots can’t handle C++ so well because their strategies for using several languages fail: one has to know C++ well in order to be able to use it successfully. I know C++ memory management like the back of my hand and much of the STL (with some C++17+ exceptions) by heart. But even though I’ve used both C# and Java in the past and could jump back in, my working knowledge of those languages…

Rust is Polygolt friendly and fills the same space as C++. I would say things are not looking good for C++ right now.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#575
post #70

Can't we have an automated C++ to Rust converter (with full correctness), and then add a pass of GPT3 to transform it into something readable (only correctness-preserving transformations allowed).

That's basically impossible since Rust is on a different paradigm of single ownership.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#577

There are plenty of talented C++ programmers. They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture. Even paying them more won't work, because no amount of money is worth that abuse. I interviewed at a trading firm once, while I was working at Netflix (because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year). The comp would have been double my Netflix salary. But I would…

You forget the abuse. In most jobs software engineers are the revenue generators. In the trading industry software engineers are just something that stands between the traders and their bonus. And the traders can get really rude.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#578

There are plenty of talented C++ programmers. They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture. Even paying them more won't work, because no amount of money is worth that abuse. I interviewed at a trading firm once, while I was working at Netflix (because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year). The comp would have been double my Netflix salary. But I would…

It's a pretty drastic assertion (and quite HN worthy) that a whole industry is abusing their developers, based on not even one job, but your impression of a job based on an interview. And assertions like "they expected us never to see our family", because you couldn't take your laptop home? Maybe if you had taken that job, you would have left the office at 5 pm, 95% of the time. Maybe not, of course, but you don't actually know.

I've been working in HFT for nearly ten years, in multiple different roles. I've met well over a hundred developers in the business, have at least a dozen I'd call friends, who are spread over nearly as many companies at this point in time. Most folks have had overwhelmingly positive experiences in the industry. Like anything there are exceptions, but I've seen no evidence of a systemic problem in the field. I know a few people who left my firm to go to Facebook and found it more stressful there, for instance. Certainly, I've worked with very very experienced ex-gamedevs, who would say unequivocally that developer abuse is a far bigger systemic issue in game dev than in finance.

Obviously it's fine to post your take but it should be tempered by the relative amount of experience you have.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#579
C++ has become a fantastically complex language. The pool of people with a "really high level of C++ skills" is narrowing because "really high level" has become more difficult to attain.

I don't understand why trading companies settled on C++, or why they need a "really high level" of proficiency with it. But it seems like a self-inflicted problem.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are only saying that because you come from a position of privilege, where your work is loosely correlated with your actual survival. I don't understand how you could think food and shelter could be provided for everyone, easily, withiur ignoring all the people who work super hard to provide you just that. Unless you just mean that it could be provided easily for some people, as long as the lower stratas keep work…

1 to 10% of population works in agriculture. This can be lowered even further with robotics and AI (sure, not in 2023, but in 2030, if efforts are made). They will then give us food and society in exchange gives them everything: schooling, medical care, holidays in nice places, maybe even housing in nice places (near a beach or a mountain). But I think at that point most people would work in agriculture for fun and f…

On the planet I live on 30% of global population works in agriculture. Automation is inevitable and is happening for decades. More often than not it does't mean smaller farmers are given nice houses on the beach for exchange of doing nothing, it works more like huge benefits go to single megacorporation, smaller farmers are pushed out of the market to poverty.
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